Category talk:Greeks from the Ottoman Empire

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Greece

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Former countries: Ottoman Empire

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Turkey

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Category hatnote[edit]

Hello,

I have tried to add a link in the see also hatnote to Category:Greeks in Turkey, and has been reverted several times by user Debresser, under the justification that "Turkey and Ottoman is not the same" and "Turkey is not Ottoman".

I think the two concepts are related enough, especially to the unknowing user, to be worth a hatnote mention, not a category inclusion. I also notice that Greeks in Turkey has a link in hatnote to Ottoman Greeks, so the reverse link would seem legitimate. I know that Turkey and Ottoman are different things, thank you, but I don't think that a mention in hatnote contradicts that. As I've been reverted several times, let's talk about this. Place Clichy (talk) 14:56, 13 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have much to add to my edit commentaries. I think that the Ottoman empire and present Turkey are too unrelated to justify the see also, and it might even mislead some people in that regard. Debresser (talk) 15:48, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Of course the Ottoman Empire and Turkey are different. But they are closely related and after the empire disintegrated it was Turkey which emerged from the ruins of the empire. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 20:59, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Incorrect statement. Turkey didn't "emerge form the ruins of the [Ottoman] empire". The empire fell apart in many pieces, of which Turkey is a part, the homeland part. This mistake of yours is precisely the reason I oppose this idea: it is so easy to confuse an empire with a remnant. Debresser (talk) 23:11, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

At the zenith of its power about 20 present day countries were the parts of the empire. But one by one each one split out either by revolts or by the intervention of the great powers. By the end of WW1 it was reduced to a part of Turkey. If the sultan were not deposed it would be still be the Ottoman state with much reduced territory. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 21:41, 15 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

But he was, and likely that had something to do with the decline of his empire. In any case, I think it is important to avoid confusion between the Ottoman Empire and present-day Turkey, and oppose the addition. Debresser (talk) 22:47, 15 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Turkey and the Ottoman Empire are related enough that, during most of its life, the Ottoman Empire was very often called Turkey. But that's not the topic here, the topic is Ottoman Greeks. There is obviously a connection between the same people on the same piece of land when that piece of land changes constitutional form, therefore I think that a see also link is perfectly relevant, and I have not seen yet any argument against this specific point. I agree that the two categories are not identical (there were indeed changes of borders [although not in 1923], population exchanges on part of the territory [after the establishment of the Republic] etc.), but the discussion here is not about category merger or inclusion, it is about a see also link. Place Clichy (talk) 12:35, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Since there has been outside input from only 1 editor, I posted about this discussion at the Greece and Turkey WikiProjects. I hope we will see some more comments soon. Debresser (talk) 21:02, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the obvious continuity of Turkey with the Ottoman Empire aside, the topic here are the Greeks of the Ottoman Empire/Turkey, and the founding of the modern Turkish state represents a caesura for them as much as for the Turks. After the population exchange, the Greek community in Turkey was not only numerically, but also socially, financially and politically a shadow of its former self. Indeed, their departure along with the Armenian genocide transformed multi-ethnic Ottoman Anatolia into the rather homogeneous (barring the Kurds) nation-state of Turkey. Therefore one could argue that linking the two concepts is misleading as in lacking nuance. However, I think this is asking too much of a simple category page hatnote. Furthermore, the communities remaining in Turkey were obviously remnants of Ottoman Hellenism, and had a clear continuity with the Ottoman period and even further back. I would therefore consider the addition appropriate, perhaps with an explanatory note, i.e. "for Greeks in the post-1923 Turkish Republic, see ..." Constantine ✍ 12:52, 20 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]