Talk:Acupuncture/Archive 34

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Request for Comment re: 'Quackery' in the lede for Acupuncture

Should the term "quackery" be used in the lede for acupuncture? The term pseudoscience is already used and it has been described as non-scientific in that same paragraph/sentence. Does using the term 'quackery' provide additional information that is not already there, or is it making a value-based call that compromises the neutrality of an encyclopedia? CranberryMuffin (talk) 16:57, 18 September 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCK comments stricken

• We generally do label quackery as quackery. EEng 17:42, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

I see no problem with the current wording. The subjunctive mood even leaves open the door to people not describing it as quackery. awkwafaba (📥) 17:52, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

• Uninvolved editor drawn here by a bot. On the face of it, it seems fine to me. @EEng:, is there another high-quality example you qan drop here that qalls quackery quackery in the lede? Awkwafaba (talk · contribs) points to the passive voice as kind of an “out” — I feel a bit different, and think it might be preferable to state that e.g. “the medical establishment [eastern? western? worldwide? does it matter]? and/or International Council of Skeptics? Whomever... characterize acupuncture as quackery.” i.e. ditched the passive/non-attribution. I believe our MOS still generally frowns on citations in the lede, but if the quackery assertion is tendentious (I could imagine it being so), an exception might be appropriate here. --EEMIV (talk) 17:59, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

  Qan I give an example of an article that qualls quackery quackery in the lead? I don't think I qan. EEng 19:20, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

  😁 Ldm1954 (talk) 19:24, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

• TCM acupuncture clearly is quackery, as it depends on things that don't exist (qi and meridians). No evidence is given that "modern" acupuncture does anything else differently, even if it doesn't use the terms. Black Kite (talk) 17:58, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

  This is like saying we can't see radio waves, so they must not exist. There is plenty of evidence that acupuncture is therapeutic in the medical literature. That said, a poor understanding of Chinese Medicine has led to a plethora of poorly designed studies in the western medical literature.

  Here is a simple example of a study demonstrating that there is often a difference in the electrical resistance of the skin at an acupuncture point when compared to the surrounding skin. (It would be not be expected to see this all the time because every person has different energetic properties or blockages happening/not happening at any given time on every aspect of their body...thus why one seeks out a professional for proper diagnosis.) https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19422323/

  A 20 second search reveals another example -- this is an overview of systematic reviews of acupuncture in the treatment of knee osteoarthritis demonstrating its superiority ("the effectiveness of electroacupuncture was better than that of western medicine") to mainstream treatment: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31305415/

  Until Wikipedia figures out how to write less biased nonsense (acupuncture is "quackery" and "pseudoscience"), it will struggle to receive fundraising support from the well educated public. 2600:1700:64A0:1340:A408:6F28:68C1:5C23 (talk) 22:36, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

  This is like saying No, it's not. Read it again, the difference is not that difficult to understand.

  We follow the scientific consensus, and that is neither found in primary studies like your first link, nor in papers written by authors working for a pro-quackery institution in a pro-quackery dictatorship, like your second link. I do not know how influential Medicine (Lippincott Williams & Wilkins journal) is, but the paper itself does not seem to have made of lot of waves. --Hob Gadling (talk) 15:47, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

• If acupuncture cannot be described as quackery, then there is no such thing as quackery. tgeorgescu (talk) 18:25, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

  Homeopathy is another pseudoscience practice but quackery is not in the lede or first paragraph. Perhaps it would be a matter of moving "quackery" away from the lede? CranberryMuffin (talk) 19:56, 18 September 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCK comments stricken

• Yes, quackery is an appropriate word to use. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:30, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
• Seems reasonable to me. "Quackery" and "pseudoscience" aren't really synonyms and this is both, so why not describe it as such? What alternative term would one use? "Fake medicine" perhaps, but I think the current term is clearer. Anaxial (talk) 18:43, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

  Well, my only contention here is that quackery brings to mind an intentional and dishonest deceit whereas traditional Chinese medicine practitioners may truly believe in what they are doing without any malice or deceit. So in that sense it is more neutral as pseudoscience than something sinister like quackery. CranberryMuffin (talk) 19:51, 18 September 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCK comments stricken

  Very few quacks are actually aware they are doing harm. Professional con artists might know they harm people, yet many quacks seem to sincerely believe that their quackery actually heals people. tgeorgescu (talk) 20:04, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

  Osteopathic manipulative therapy (OMT) by DO physicians in the United States believe that you can treat asthma by manipulating the back with pressure points. It is also a form of alternative medicine, but because it has Western origins it is much more widely accepted. Anyway, this is run by consensus and if most editors believe in using the term quackery for mostly Eastern stuff then so be it. CranberryMuffin (talk) 20:28, 18 September 2023 (UTC) WP:SOCK comments stricken

An independent view. The term quackery is clearly inappropriate and should be deleted without hesitation. The term implies deliberate fraud. There is no evidence that a multibillion industry is all deliberate fraud. The term is very definitely inappropriate for any Wikipedia article except, perhaps, for someone convicted of fraud. Ldm1954 (talk) 20:35, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

I disagree about the choice of following the majority here. The term quackery is clearly not WP:NPOV, plus could be termed WP:OR and other violations. Ldm1954 (talk) 20:38, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/how-do-scientists-become-cranks-and-doctors-quacks/

And I agree there's room for nuance: in the Antiquity, acupuncture wasn't quackery. It is only quackery in the 20th and 21st century, when we know better. The power of "mainstream" or "Western" medicine is its relentless fight against myths and superstitions, even when such myths/superstitions happened to be mainstream/Western. Yup, just 200-300 years ago "Western" medicine wasn't all that great. In doubt, read the medical advertisements from old editions of the Boy Scout Handbook. tgeorgescu (talk) 21:17, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. Sometimes on WP we need to be neutral for topics/models etc even when we know they are wrong. State, then point out the flaws gently but firmly. Ldm1954 (talk) 21:20, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

The difference between Western medicine and modern TCM is that Western countries were prepared to "kill their darlings", i.e. sacrifice their previous beloved ideas upon the altar of modern science. Of course, Western countries allow some freedom to the SCAM industry, but their mainstream science never endorses SCAM. In the PRC, TCM is officially endorsed by scientists and claiming that it does not work amounts to a political crime (rebellion against the political order). Source: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/03/beijing-draws-up-plans-to-outlaw-criticism-of-traditional-chinese-medicine and https://www.cfr.org/blog/traditional-chinese-medicine-cure-chinas-soft-power-woes And even if it is not officially a crime, no Chinese scientist wants to attract the ire of the functionaries of the Party. tgeorgescu (talk) 00:58, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Personally I think it's a bit hubristic for an article everyone knows is written by volunteers with no necessary expertise to contain such vehement language in such a prominent place, even if true. ByVarying | talk 22:57, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

I think it's worth pointing out that we don't say it in Wikipedia's voice. It's attributed. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:02, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

 Question: is the RfC still applicable as openend by an already blocked sockpuppet? --Julius Senegal (talk) 11:13, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

I removed the RfC template, so it's no longer listed as an active RfC, but I guess there's no reason why editors cannot discuss it if they really want to. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:10, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Article is biased

In the efficacy chapter, it only cherrypicks and gives the entire weight to just one guy who is a renowned skeptic who already made his mind or doesn't want to believe eastern medicine works, and put a tremendous amount of vested time and effort in claiming it doesn't work, and even creates an online blog. He doesn't actually do any studies or conduct experiments. Meanwhile there are actual academic institutions like Harvard, who consist of many researchers who had done better studies and high quality methodologies and confirmed benefits are not due to placebo and it reduces inflammation.https://www.harvardmagazine.com/2020/12/right-now-acupuncture-relieves-inflammation + https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2021/11/23/cytokine-storm/ Also the article puts too much weight in outdated systematic reviews. But it doesn't give much mention to more recent systematic reviews that confirm it is effective on chronic pain during opioid addiction. https://www.painmedicinenews.com/Complementary-and-Alternative/Article/03-23/Acupuncture-Helps-Stem-Opioid-Addiction-While-Treating-Acute-Pain/69736 Even if you don't believe in the underlying philosophy, it's possible that placebo effect is not the only explanation, given how many people feel a real difference and you can't just cherrypick one skeptic and have him dominate the article. Other researchers who have confirmed its effectiveness like Harvard and Pain Journal should have a mention in the efficacy chapter. Why is the article so dominated by one guy who overrides all the experts that should have more say than him. Harvard is a highly trusted institution and they contradict him completely in these past few years. Renfieldaccusome (talk) 06:10, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't know why I can't edit the accupuncture page. What do I need to do to edit? I already even registered an account. Yet it still gives the prompt that the 'page is protected from vandalism'. I just want to add in that Boston scientists used MRI scans and accupuncture on the wrist. They found real accupuncture has truly helped to rewire the brain physically and improves outcome in carpal tunnel syndrome. They found that real accupuncture works but sham accupuncture failed to have the same long term effect on the brain remapping. Personally I had crippling carpal tunnel syndrome and have accupuncture to thank for it improving where I can do things with noticeable less symptoms and why I really believe it works. And very disappointed to see the accupuncture page have a great deal of skepticism dominating it, and so ask whoever is in charge of Wikipedia affairs, to read my arguments and add it into the article info for efficacy. I quickly googled these links just now and it supports what I written above. https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/can-acupuncture-help-carpal-tunnel-syndrome-2#effectiveness and https://www.discovermagazine.com/health/acupuncture-works-by-re-wiring-the-brain-evidence-suggests and https://time.com/4690200/acupuncture-carpal-tunnel-syndrome/ Renfieldaccusome (talk) 07:01, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

The reason you cannot edit it, is that it is semi-protected. Please see also WP:MEDRS, which defines the kinds of sources we will use here. The sources you cite above fail those criteria, so the edit you propose would end up being reverted. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:06, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Add Emerging Theory Suggests that the Fascia Network may be the Anatomical Basis for Acupuncture Points and the Meridians.

See article published in medical journal in 2011: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3092510/

See also "The Spark in the Machine: How the Science of Acupuncture Explains the Mysteries of Western Medicine" by Daniel Keown, published in 2014 2600:1700:64A0:1340:A408:6F28:68C1:5C23 (talk) 22:47, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

No. — SamX [talk · contribs] 22:49, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia depends on verifiable sources to support its content. A study that has not been replicated or repeated is not ultimately, verifiable. It might be that later on certain kinds of content is verified by repeated and or replicated results or alternately will be found to be not-replicable. Until then, Wikipedia, to protect the safety of its readers, only uses health-related, content sources that have been vetted in this way. Littleolive oil (talk) 17:03, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Safety of readers? If you read the public health department's words for accupuncture, they say it's generally safe and many well-designed studies have found that acupuncture can help with certain conditions, such as back pain, knee pain, headaches and osteoarthritis. https://newsinhealth.nih.gov/2011/02/understanding-acupuncture I don't think a US gov body would be recommending accupuncture to people for no good reason at all. Renfieldaccusome (talk) 06:16, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Your high opinion of the governmental institutions of some random country cannot be the foundation for an article about a medical subject. See WP:MEDRS. --Hob Gadling (talk) 09:39, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

To be more precise, the information about what many well-designed studies have found comes from the NCCAM, which is the NIH's quackery branch it has to suffer for political reasons. --Hob Gadling (talk) 12:35, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Theatrical Placebo

Acupuncture (in the US at least) is usually used for pain management, as the article states. At least some doctors are reasonably sure it is a theatrical placebo. This seems right to me. But since we are specifically in the realm of pain management, where the placebo effect can, in fact, work, I'm wondering if we have to be more careful about some of our statements about its efficacy. I'm thinking in particular the fourth paragraph of the lead: "The conclusions of trials and systematic reviews of acupuncture generally provide no good evidence of benefit, which suggests that it is not an effective method of healthcare."

As the Wikipedia article on placebos says, "[Placebos] can affect how patients perceive their condition and encourage the body's chemical processes for relieving pain." Maybe we should just say "no good evidence of benefit compared with a placebo"? AtavisticPillow (talk) 00:37, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

No, because that takes us in the direction of another quackery, whereby the 'power of placebo' is argued as a excuse for all fake medicine.[1] And in fact, most comparisons of acupuncture effect wrt pain are against sham acupuncture, not placebo, per PMID:36416820. Bon courage (talk) 02:10, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Sham acupuncture is a variety of placebo, not something else entirely. I understand it is not Wikipedia's role to promote the power of the placebo, nor was I suggesting it do so. I was simply suggesting updating the description to more accurately reflect what the trials generally disclose: that acupuncture is no better than sham acupuncture. (You are right, though, that the distinction matters because the evidence that placebos have effects distinct from foregoing treatment is largely restricted to pain). Still, I have a hard time seeing how adding four words to more accurately characterize the results of a study constitutes moving in the direction of quackery. Later in the article a Novella piece is cited attributing acupuncture's effects to a placebo – hardly someone who could be said to take us in the direction of another quackery, and this adjustment would be even more modest than his claim: it would be a purely descriptive account of the results of a secondary source. AtavisticPillow (talk) 02:42, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Went ahead and executed this edit since both sources for the sentence refer to lack of benefit relative to a placebo, not absolutely; I only added four words ("relative to a placebo"). AtavisticPillow (talk) 16:45, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

No, that is bad style likely to confuse readers. If you want to propose that all medical article need to have "compared to placebo" added into all discussions of efficacy, make a case at WT:MED, but it would add nothing to the Project in my view. Bon courage (talk) 16:46, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

I think readers can generally be expected to be familiar with the placebo effect? But anyway I don't think it matters in all discussions of efficacy, just for something that is predominantly used to treat pain. Per the Wiki article on placebos: "A 2010 Cochrane Collaboration review suggests that placebo effects are apparent only in subjective, continuous measures, and in the treatment of pain and related conditions." Considering this background, the meaning of the characterization of the review changes depending on our speaking in absolute terms or relative to the placebo.

But I will raise the issue at WT:MED. AtavisticPillow (talk) 16:54, 23 January 2024 (UTC)