Talk:Albanians of Western Thrace

An interesting article

But what is the difference between this article and Albanians in Greece? Iraqi (talk) 16:39, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Albanians in Greece shall be a grouping page of all communities of Albanian origin in there. National communities: Cham Albanians, Albanians of Northwest Greece, Ethnic communities: Arvanites, Albanian-speakers of Western Thrace, Immigrant communities: Albanian nationals in Greece.Balkanian`s word (talk) 16:41, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

I see. So why is this page not titled Albanians in Western Thrace? Are they not self-claimed Albanians? Or do they not really have a core national identity? Iraqi (talk) 17:32, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

I think I know the answer, does Greece not recognize them as an ethnic/national group? Like Slavic-speakers of Greek Macedonia ? Iraqi (talk) 17:36, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Actually I do not know it and have no source about such a thing. So, it would be better to keep it this way, until find a ref about it. And Greece does not recognize them.Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:38, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

No one of us in Thrace speaks albanian nowadays. We were, we are and we will be greeks for ever. Albanians, don't dream, it's over. Our ancestor never said that they were albanians. They had GREEK SCHOOLS and noone of them prefered to go to Albania in 1922 but all settled in Greece because they were Greeks... Our ancestors were albanian speakers, not albanians. Italian speakers in Switzerland are swiss, not italians, Argentinians are spanish speakers, not spanish etc.

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"So why is this page not titled Albanians in Western Thrace? Are they not self-claimed Albanians?"

No my friend, we self identify as Greeks, as our albanian speaking grand parents. You must respect our right to self-identify. Our grand parents were albanian-speaking GREEKS, they fought and died for Greece. Look at these maps. Do you see any albanians in Eastern Thrace?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Ethnographic_map_Ami_Boue_1847.jpg http://www.promacedonia.org/en/dr/dr_map_19.jpg http://www.promacedonia.org/en/dr/dr_map_22.jpg http://www.promacedonia.org/en/dr/dr_map_23.jpg http://www.promacedonia.org/en/dr/dr_map_24.jpg http://www.promacedonia.org/en/dr/dr_map_25.jpg http://www.promacedonia.org/en/dr/dr_map_26.jpg http://www.promacedonia.org/en/dr/dr_map_27.jpg

Respect our history and don't support nationalistic antiscientific historical stealings. This article is full of mistakes and arbitrary conclusions. Who is the writer of this article? Has he ever been in our villages in Western Thrace? We claim our right to self identify. No one can speak for us without us. This article is against human rights and we will protest to international organizations. Can the writer of this article present an historical evidence, source, citation in which albanian-speaking Greeks self-indentified as Albanians? Can he explain why no one of them went to Albania after 1922? Can he explain why all albanian-speaking villages had GREEK schools, even in Vithkuq?

We are waiting for an answer. This article is a patch work of someone albanian nationalist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.107.174.78 (talk) 20:18, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

My friend, we are still waiting on your so called "protests". Please, go through the proper wikipedia channels or make your case to the editors at Greek wikipedia. I would love to hear from them ! See here on wikipedia, we work with facts not fiction. Now however things are done in Greece, its school system, or state ideology which tries to sugarcoat linguistic and other forms of diversity, here we deal with the facts. There are Albanian speakers in Greek Thrace. Most are elderly. The community today identifies as Greeks. They have been attending Greek schools for more than a 150 years now and have adopted all that comes with it. Few questioned that position like Fan Noli, who valued the Albanian part of his heritage much more than becoming Greek. These people were few. Most made their choices and are Greek like yourself. However that does not detract from the position that these people spoke Albanian and described themselves as Shqiptar once a upon a time. It is documented. As for why these people went to Greece and not Albania after the exchange of populations. Well as already mentioned, they felt Greek, and like their other Greek speaking neighbours in Thrace fought for the Greek cause. Now Turkey was not going to allow people who supported Greece to stay on its sovereign territory. As for why there were "Greek schools" in your villages, it was because the Greek church had a monopoly on all things Orthodox. Some ethnic groups were able to break that stranglehold like the Bulgarians, amongst Orthodox Albanian speakers, the movement to emancipate Orthodoxy for Albanian speakers was very weak (even today still many in the Albanian community see it as weak). In fact it was one from your community Fan Noli who founded the Albanian Orthodox Church. The question for you my friend is, why in faraway Thrace did your ancestors speak Albanian, you know Shqip ? They were faraway from any Albanian speaking lands, surrounded by Greak, Bulgarian and Turkish speakers? Muslim Albanians were far and few to be found in the area, expect for a few in Edirne, while most were in nearby, yet distant Istanbul. I say so, because you can't use that excuse, so common and full of Islamophobia, used by Orthodox Albanian speakers in Greece (e.g. Arvanites) that Muslim Albanians somehow "forced" them to speak Albanian. I ask you to give an answer that is one based outside Greek nationalist notions which paints everything Muslim and Ottoman as "evil" and to be impartial about it. Resnjari (talk) 06:27, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

The Albanian-speaking villages.

Could someone please provide solid evidence of these villages such as their names? PMK1 (talk) 13:35, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

There aren't albanian speaking villages in Thrace anymore. Our grandfathers speaked albanian but they self-identified as Greeks. Nowadays, all former albanian speakers speak only greek. Come here, in our villages to see this with your own eyes. This anti scientific article is just another nationalistic albanian propaganda and nothing more. The moderators of Wikipedia should be more careful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.107.174.78 (talk) 23:25, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Wikipeida is about facts, not denying them. Resnjari (talk) 06:27, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

The albanian speakers settled in Western Thrace in 1922, not in 1923 (as article reads)

"At the conclusion of the Greco-Turkish War of 1919–1922, Greece and Turkey signed the Treaty of Lausanne, which included a population exchange between the two countries. The treaty used religion as the indicator of national affiliation, thus including populations without ethnic provisions, even Albanians, in the population exchange. Under this treaty the Muslims of Greece were exchanged with the Christians of Turkey, with an exception of the Muslims of Western Thrace and the Christians of Istanbul".[5]

____________

The albanian-speaking Greeks of Eastern Thrace settled in Western Thrace in October of 1922 according to the Armistice of Mudanya: History of the Ottoman Empire and modern Turkey, Cambridge University Press, 1977, p.362-364

http://books.google.gr/books?id=AIET_7ji7YAC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_v2_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=&f=false

France, Italy and Britain called Mustafa Kemal to Venice for cease-fire negotiations. In return, Mustafa Kemal demanded negotiations be started at Moudania (Mudanya) on condition that east Thrace be ceded to Turks immediately. Negotiations at Mudanya began on October 3, with the Turkish delegation lead by Ismet Inonu, and the Greeks represented by the Allies. When the British resisted, at Chanak on the Dardanelles, Kemal dared Britain to enforce the terms of the Treaty of Sèvres, but Lloyd George backed down. The Mudanya Armistice was concluded on October 11, 1922, with the Allies keeping east Thrace and the Bosporus under occupation, but the Greeks evacuating these areas. The agreement came into force starting October 15, one day after the Greek side agreed to sign it.

http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/greco-turkish-war-1919-1922-/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.107.174.78 (talk) 23:42, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Muslim Albanians in ...Western Thrace?

Muslim Albanians have nothing to do with Christian Albanian-speaking Greeks of Eastern Thrace. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.107.174.78 (talk) 23:44, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

I know Islam is a boogeyman still in Greece. And for Orthodox Albanian speakers in Greece, that a large body of people still exist today speaking a language that is identical to them must be "frightening", because it might call into question their Greek affiliation or identity. Frankly, Albanians who are of Muslim heritage no longer give stuff about views such as yours. If, you don't want to associate with Muslim Albanians, fine. But the language that Orthodox Albanian speakers speak e.g. Albanian, and that of Muslim Albanians is Albanian, and that part will be examined in a scholarly way. Wikipedia does not do Golden Dawn histories here. Resnjari (talk) 06:27, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

The direct descendants of Fan Noli.

The article reads: "The direct descendants of the prominent Albanian writer and politician, Fan Noli, who was born in Eastern Thrace, today live in the Greek part of the region".

___________________

Fan Noli was a Bishop and therefore he never married and obviously had no ...direct descendants!!! His name was Theofanis Mavromatis and his relatives live today in the village Tychero (Τυχερό) in Evros Prefecture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tychero and they are Greeks.

This article is full of mistakes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.107.174.78 (talk) 20:33, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Point out how, otherwise your comments are full of wind...... Resnjari (talk) 06:27, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

The Albanian-speakers of Western Thrace and Macedonia use the common Albanian self-appellation, Shqiptar

The Albanian-speakers of Western Thrace and Macedonia use the common Albanian self-appellation, Shqiptar. ________________

Yes, this is true but our ancestors came in Eastern Thrace after Scanderbeg's time and the self-identification had a geographic and not a national content. The Albanian nation did not exist then and is a nationalistic myth that Scanderbeg was an albanian. An albanian historian notes:

"Over time Scanderbeg has been given a lead role by Albanian nationalists as a symbol of national unity. Using episodes out of the Middle Ages is a fairly common aspect of Balkan nationasm. Piro Misha botes that Scanderbeg’s transformation into a national hero made him “the embodiment of the myth ‘of continuous resistance’ against their national foes.” His identity as a Christian prince and the alliance he forged with the Kingdom of Naples and the recognition he received from the Venetians and the papacy, were all used to affirm the European identity of Albania. In Sami Frasheri’s Albania: What it Was, What it Is, What it Will Be one sees the degree to which Scanderbeg’s figure was elevated by the nationalists of the 19th century".

Pahumi, Nevila, The Consolidation of Albanian Nationalism: The League of Prizren 1878-1881, University of Michigan, 2007, p.15. http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/2027.42/55462/1/pahumi_history_honors_thesis_2007.pdf

All christians of Ottoman Empire identified them selves as christians then, not Albanians, Greeks or Bulgarians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.107.174.78 (talk) 20:51, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

They identified as Christians, while also having at a local level various forms of geographical, linguistic and other forms of identity and self appellations. Regarding Albanian speakers of whatever religion, until the creation of the Greek state, a feeling of ethnic solidarity overrode religion. This was the observation that John Cam Hobhouse, a British traveller, contemporary of Byron and defiantly no admirer of Muslims and Ali Pasha said of Albanians and identity:

"However, it is certain that the Christians, who can fairly be called Albanians, are scarcely, if at all, to be distinguished from the Mahometans. They carry arms, and many of them are enrolled on the service of Ali, and differ in no respect from his other soldiers. There is a spirit of independence and a love of their country, in the whole people, that, in a great measure, does away the vast distinction, observable in other parts of Turkey, between the followers of the two religions. For when the natives of other provinces, upon being asked who they are, will say "we are Turks" or, "we are Christians," a man of this country answers, "I am an Albanian".

John Cam Hobhouse (1813). A Journey through Albania, and other provinces of Turkey in Europe and Asia, to Constantinople, during the years 1809 and 1810. volume I. James Cawthorn. f. 147-148.

So you should ask yourself as to how Orthodox Albanian speakers came to be so distant from their Muslim counterparts. I'll give you a hint, Greek schools, Greek church and Greek nationalist ideology..... Resnjari (talk) 06:27, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Albanian-speakers inhabit 15 homogeneous and 14 mixed villages

Which are these villages? Haven't they a name? I think is very unclear and the writer should be clear. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Doctor1973 (talk • contribs) 20:19, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

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Why is this article fake

The article says "The Albanians of Western Thrace form an ethnic minority in Greek Macedonia and Western Thrace along the border with Turkey. They speak the Northern Tosk subbranch of Tosk Albanian and are descendants of the Albanian population of Eastern Thrace who migrated during the Population exchange between Greece and Turkey in the 1920s"

Comments

1. The population exchange took place in 1923 and not 1920

2. Those who settled in western Thrace had a Greek national consciousness,thus they were transfered, under the agreement, from Asia Minor, Eastern Thrace and Black Sea regions. Additionaly, this is how the Greek goverment perceived them. If they were considered Albanians they wouldn't , under the Treaty, settled on Greek lands. They would be either in Albania or they would stay in Turkey. Ipapas (talk) 10:42, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Remove/rewrite the paragraph distribution

The article states "In the 1951 census in Greece, Albanians formed around 3% of the total population in the Evros,

In this link you can find the published 1951 Cencus by the Greek Statistic Authority. As you can see, nothing is mentioned regarding ethnicities, much more mentioning Albanian ethnicity in western Thrace http://dlib.statistics.gr/Book/GRESYE_02_0101_00031.pdf

The article is obviously written in a way that supports the Albanian nationalistic aspirations. I suggest to be edited to reflect the truth until more data ara available Ipapas (talk) 10:48, 18 September 2023 (UTC)