Talk:Andalusian Spanish

Language politics

You may want to collaborate in Language politics in Francoist Spain. --Error 00:59, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

standardized Andaluz?

I removed this:

However, a standardized form of the dialect is spreading rapidly, being taught in schools and used in the mass media and by politicians.

Where this came from? There is no such thing like standardized Andaluz and of course it's not taught in any school.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Alesis69~enwiki (talk • contribs) 06:55, 14 March 2006‎

City / countryside

I heard that in Cádiz carnival, murgas use seseo for their normal lyrics and ceceo to ridicule rural people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.250.143.131 (talk • contribs) 11:35, 5 May 2006‎

It is true. But it is not something that only appears in the Cadiz Carnival. People who are seseantes or who distinguish between s-c-z often ridicules those who are ceceantes who normally are from the rural zones.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.76.155.96 (talk • contribs) 08:23, 1 August 2006‎

No!! Let's see... I'm from Cádiz and in the Cadiz Carnival nobody uses ceceo to ridicule rural people. In fact, Cadiz province use to speak with ceceo and there are many people from Cadiz city that are also ceceantes though seseantes are majority. For example: Jerez de la Frontera is bigger than Cadiz (Cadiz is the capital of the province) and has more population (206.000). However, in Jerez, the 50% of the population are ceceantes and the other 50% distinguishes between s-c-z of course with its respective andalusian accent. Ceceo appears in some rural zones, that's true, but there are some big cities where there are ceceante people too (Málaga for example).— Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.123.161.250 (talk • contribs) 00:42, 28 November 2006‎

Aspiration comparison with French

To understand how an Andalusian tells 'la casa' from 'las casas', think of the difference in French between 'de' and 'des'.

In French, de is pronounced [də] while des is pronounced [de], a difference marked by a vowel change, not the addition of an aspirated s. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.97.18.13 (talk • contribs) 14:11, 2 August 2006.

A good point. It's worth mentioning though that supposedly there are Andalusians who would change [es] to [ɛ], which sounds pretty similar to what you describe of French. –Andyluciano 17:22, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Updated the article based on this. Removed reference to French as per your suggestion. –Andyluciano 17:41, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Juerga is not debauchery

Hum... juerga means "spree" in english. For example: "Ayer estuve de juerga" = "I was out on a spree yesterday" On the other hand... juerga is not the pronunciation of huelga in Andalusia. And in addition, juerga is not a word that have been entered in general Spanish because of the "supposed" pronunciation. They're completely different words. There are some cases where, of course, it happens, but not in juerga. "Bailaor" or "cantaor" are really good examples. So, do you mind if I change it??? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.123.161.250 (talk • contribs) 01:09, 28 November 2006‎

Extending the page

I think I may try to extend this page soon by translating the spanish page into english. There's a lot more information in the spanish version and it's got references too. Andrewharrington2003 16:55, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I've translated and entered the introduction... Andrewharrington2003 11:29, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Standard Spanish

In this page, a dialect called "standard Spanish" is mentioned several times. I suppose this refers to the speech of TV newscasters in Madrid. Nobody else speaks this 'dialect', and therefore it should be mentioned that the most spoken dialects in Spain today are those in central-south Spain : Madrid, La Mancha, Extremadura, Murcia,... (s-aspirating but z/s distinguishing). But before changing the article, I'd like to know the opinions of other wikipedians about it. --Jotam 17:02, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, there is a page devoted to Standard Spanish, so that should be explanation enough for any readers. You could argue that "BBC English" isn't really spoken by anybody other than British newsreaders or a few people educated in some very prestigious universities in England, but that doesn't mean all references to it should be erased. I think "Standard Spanish" should be left in. Andrewharrington2003 11:19, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

The expression 'standard Spanish' is used with different meanings in each page. This isn't much help. --Jotam 17:21, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I've read through the article again and it does seem that "standard spanish" is given a few different meanings. I've tried to clarify a few cases where "standard spanish" refers more to the Castilian dialect rather standard spanish as defined in the article I linked to above. I suppose there is the potential for confusion... Then again, isn't "standard spanish" primarily based on Castilian? Andrewharrington2003 21:39, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

As I've explained in other talk pages, 'Castilian Spanish' is a political construct, there is no linguistic basis whatsoever to classify the speech of Toledo and Valladolid together. I can see you assume that everyone speaks the same north of Despeñaperros. That isn't just an inaccuracy, it's a big lie. --Jotam 19:43, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not assuming anything, nor am I trying to spread "big lies" around. I know that there are different varieties of Spanish north of Andalusia, but if you look at any Spanish language textbook or linguistic study, you'll see a dialect called "Castilian" (or "central Castilian") on the map in central Spain. Most languages have a standard that's largely based on a single dialect, so it's reasonable to assume that there must be some locality in Spain where the dialect is very similar, or identical to, the "Standard Spanish" spoken by news readers, taught to foreigners and described on the main Spanish Language page. And it's also possible to have regional differences within a dialect (I don't know about Toledo and Valladolid, but do know that the speech of Cadiz and Granada are quite different, but they're the same dialect). Your point about "Standard Spanish" being used with different meanings and that we should clean it up is valid, but the fact is that many people (i.e. English speakers) take "Castilian", "Spanish" and "Standard Spanish" to mean exactly the same thing. Andrewharrington2003 16:14, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Check this out: http://jotamartin.byethost33.com/alpi0_e.php --Jotam 18:16, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Carne

Before "n" and "l", "r" may be either elided or aspirated. Thus, perla ("pearl") becomes either pe'la or pehla, carne ("meat") becomes ca'ne or cahne, etc.

I'd describe it more as a gemination ("pel-la", "canne"). --Error (talk) 00:23, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Vosotros

many American Spanish dialects share some fundamental characteristics with Andalusian Spanish, such as the use of ustedes instead of vosotros for the second person plural

This is a generalisation. As mentioned later on in the article, this may be the case for a number of Andalusian speakers in the West of Andalusia, but it is certainly not the rule. Personally I have never come across an Andalusian who does, and I know quite a few! The quote gives the impression that a defining feature of the Andalusian language is the use of ustedes Jimineep (talk) 15:48, 12 April 2008 (UTC)Jim

The "LL"

Ever heard the Gipsy Kings sing? If it's about an estrella (star), they'd pronounce it "estreDJa" with DJ = "g" in "genius". Can anyone confirm this? I'd say this is an Andalusian-only specialty. (BTW, I think this has been in this article once, but got removed later.) -andy 92.227.70.161 (talk) 05:11, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

The "CH" sound of Andalusian Spanish

Can someone from this dialectical region, or someone who has a specialty in said region confirm that the "ch" is pronounced as the "sh" sound in English "sheep?" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.112.242.125 (talk) 22:17, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

According to this website, that's a feature of Havana, Cuba and parts of Chile, but not Andalusia. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 22:27, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

It says on this page that people living in the city of Sevilla pronounce the "CH" as the same sound as in sheep. I'm a little confused here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.112.242.125 (talk) 23:31, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, looks like this page might be wrong. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 01:07, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

That pronunciation is definitely typical (and stereotypical) of Western Andalusia, including Seville. Jotamar (talk) 17:43, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Absolutely not wrong.

128.123.242.201 (talk) 18:00, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Relation to "Standard Spanish", sociolinguistic nuance

I'm making this section because this is something that has to get done but that I won't get around to doing right away. The lead paragraph says Andalusian dialects "include perhaps the most distinct of the southern variants of peninsular Spanish, differing in many respects from northern varieties, and also from Standard Spanish." Andalusian certainly is quite distinct, but "differing in many respects from Standard Spanish" is an oversimplification, and this page needs to include some more nuance and detail on the sociolinguistic value of different features of Andalusian Spanish.

I'll recommend some sources:

Penny (2000): Variation and Change... has a subsection on "Castilian and Andalusian" which gives a nice little big-picture overview at the beginning ("central-southern innovations most usually did not reach the trend-setting cities... and therefore did not usually become part of standard Spanish") and then detail on a bunch of Andalusian innovations, and their extent and sociolinguistic value.

Lipski's article on bilingualism in Gibraltar talks about the restoration of final consonants in higher registers in Andalusian Spanish (and the apparent lack of such restoration in Gibraltar), such that the highest levels of consonant weakening are associated with the lowest levels of formality

Lipski's "Which Spanish(es) to Teach? only touches briefly on Andalusian Spanish but it could still be useful. It talks more broadly about the pluricentric nature of Spanish and its relation to the second-language classroom

I know there are some articles about dialect leveling going on in Eastern Andalusia and Murcia that are available for free, leading to higher levels of s-aspiration among younger speakers but lower levels of other non-standard features, and a different pattern from what's going on in Western Andalusia, however I haven't tried looking them up right now.

I'd appreciate any help with this! Erinius (talk) 00:07, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

I suppose you already know my position: Andalusian is a politically charged term, very convenient for Spanish nationalists. In practice, it encompasses quite divergent vernacular varieties; taking 2 extreme examples, the rural varieties in, say, Cádiz Province and Almería Province, are probably on the brink of having no mutual intelligibility. --Jotamar (talk) 08:43, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, Andalusian is more a geographical term than in a linguistic one. The same is true of most dialect labels. Erinius (talk) 09:43, 23 October 2022 (UTC)