Talk:Aylesbury Estate

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Improvement[edit]

Could definitely do with improvement. Ackie00 21:47, 16 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I have expanded and cleaned up a lot of the article, though I don't have access to an image at present. -- Francs2000 21:57, 29 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'll get some pics. We could probably do with a hand drawn map too. Secretlondon 22:55, 29 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This needs the controversy - the fact that there was previously a ballot on demolition which went against the Council. Secretlondon 23:16, 29 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I've added 2 pics. I'm not sure of the name of the block pictured on Albany Road. I *think* it is Chiltern House, but I may be wrong. Secretlondon 05:15, 2 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This article states that the Aylesbury is considered one of the UK's most notorious estates along with the Ferrier. This seems overly subjective, particularly as no source is quoted.

Duncan —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.37.90.126 (talk) 13:21, 30 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I know of at least 3 estates in the UK that are "the largest in Europe", mostly bigger than this one. Go to Eastern Europe, and you'll see endless towns that look worse, so I think this claim should be dropped —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.155.63.78 (talk) 00:30, 20 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Plan[edit]

I'd like to make a plan of the estate giving block names. This would also show the scale, and list which Buckinghamshire towns they are named after. Secretlondon 19:28, 2 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Any news on that estate plan? Or have the local council flattened it already? -- Francs2000 21:16, 26 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It's going to be there for several years yet.. I have a photo of a map on a sign but I hope I have something better to work from. I'm also not exactly sure re:file format etc. Secretlondon 22:42, 26 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm mapping it via OpenStreetMap as it's a lot easier. Shiny estate map coming soon! Secretlondon 13:43, 18 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Architecture[edit]

There's very little on the architecture of this estate on Wikipedia, but from the pictures I've seen of it it looks to be an example of Brutalist architecture. There appears to be no article on Derek Winch who was supposed to have designed it. Would someone who knows it a little better care to comment? A lot of brutalist architecture is now being demolished - I hold no candle for it! Soarhead77 21:07, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well I have a few corrections on this topic. The article was wrong.
The architect was Hans Peter Trenton, an Austrian, who came to London before the war as a jewish refugee from nazi Germany, in succession to F.O Hayes, Borough Architect and Planner. Trenton's title was Borough Architect, in charge of about 60 architectural staff at London Borough of Southwark. The Assistant Borough Architect (second tier) was Malcolm Stocker. The Borough Planning Officer was Ian Lacey who later became the chief planner for the City of Westminster. Derek Winch was a group leader (third tier). Due to some of the politics surrounding the design of the estate, names of people involved have been rather obscured at the time, but in particular Hans Peter Trenton is clearly credited as the architect in the original design documents some of which should be on file in Peckham town hall.
As a matter of interest, the same team of architects and planners who designed the Aylesbury Estate also created Burgess Park. One of the reasons for the relatively high residential density of the Aylesbury Estate was the need to vacate the land to clear the land to do so.
-- Harry Wood (talk) 19:09, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hell's waiting room[edit]

It is misleading to simply state that the estate is known "colloquially" as "Hell's waiting room." The name was coined by feature-writer Paul Harris in the Daily Mail dated April 2005. The complete quote is: "To walk around the sprawling landscape of the Aylesbury estate is like visiting hell's waiting room." (Harris, Paul (13 April 2005). "So things could only get better, Tony?". Daily Mail. London. p. 12.) The newspaper article is basically a middle-class, right-leaning polemic against Labour, obviously extremely biased, and based on a single - brief - visit to the estate to cover Michael Howard as he "swept through the [estate] on a crisp, spring day with his retinue behind him and a camera crew in tow." As The Guardian observed a few days later: "Howard popped by because it allowed him to rubbish Blair. Sections of the media came because it suited their agenda, and uncomplicated tales of despair and decay are the easiest to craft. When the bandwagon follows Blair back to the Aylesbury estate in the near future, residents hope they will get more candour and fair treatment." (Muir, Hugh (18 May 2005). "Hugh Muir asks why, when the media visit a 'sink' estate, does it ignore the good news?". The Guardian. London. p. 11.)

Harris' phrase would pop up in the press a few years later eg The Independent: "The Daily Mail called the estate "Hell's waiting room..." (McSmith, Andy (20 October 2008). "How do you sell the 'housing estate from hell'?". The Independent. London. p. 14.); The Times: "To be fair, the Aylesbury's appalling reputation is somewhat outdated. The authorities, and many residents, have made strenuous efforts to improve it in recent years. But not even its staunchest defenders want to preserve the forbidding, dilapidated Soviet-style blocks of what has been described as "the estate from Hell" and "Hell's waiting room"." (Fletcher, Martin (20 October 2008). "New dawn for Hell's waiting room". The Times. London. p. 2.); the London Evening Standard: "A South London estate has ditched the PR company it hired to improve its image in the media. The Aylesbury Estate in Walworth, dubbed "hell's waiting room" in one newspaper..." ("'Notorious' estate axes PR". London Evening Standard. London. 17 November 2008. p. 21.).

So, nobody other than the Mail has called it "Hell's waiting room." The residents haven't. The other newspapers merely reported what the Mail called it. As Sam Jones wrote: "[T]he Aylesbury became journalistic shorthand for inner-city crime, squalor and deprivation, with the Daily Mail describing a walk around its precincts as "like visiting hell's waiting room". The Mail's description is not popular with Southwark council - whose £2.4bn regeneration programme was accepted by the government at the end of last year - nor with all the estate's residents... [A resident said] "We find it unfair that the media always come here and think we're so bloody deprived. We're not. Money has been ploughed into the estate though the New Deal and Sure Start. We're not the only ones." (Jones, Sam (27 January 2010). "Aylesbury estate: 'Life here can be a struggle, but I'm not that hard done by'". The Guardian. London. p. 4.) See also: "It is nonetheless a huge blow for Aylesbury residents, all the more so after they spent years trying to counter a media stereotype of their home as a crime-ridden ghetto, "hell's waiting room" in a tabloid phrase still recalled with anger." (Walker, Peter (27 December 2010). "High rise hopes laid low: coalition cuts off £180m from regeneration plans for Blair's flagship project". The Guardian. London. p. 11. and "One newspaper once stigmatised it as "Hell's waiting-room".(Merrick, Jay (25 January 2011). "When teacher ticked off the architect...". The Independent. London. p. 20.)

Contradicting the Mail we get: ""You know what, I'm proud to come from here," he says. "It's not hell's anything. It's home." Scratch the surface of the Aylesbury - look beyond its photogenic ugliness and behind its hoods - and things are not always how they first appear." (Wynne-Jones, Ros (12 January 2013). "I am proud to come from here ..it's not hell, it's home". Daily Mirror. London. p. 30.), "It was labelled "hell's waiting room" and film crews arrived every time they needed a backdrop for "broken Britain". And yet Aylesbury has also been an emblem of urban regeneration... [O]n my visits, I saw plenty that ran counter to my expectations. There were men in fluorescent tabards picking up litter. I visited a well-equipped nursery, dropped in on a table-tennis session at the youth club, and walked around as two policemen shared advice with local youth volunteers." (Godwin, Richard (26 March 2013). "We shall not be moved: Richard Godwin on the inside story of 50 years of the Aylesbury Estate, once Europe's largest housing project, and of the Londoners living there who reject its label as 'hell's waiting room'". London Evening Standard. London. p. 34.)

tl;dr[edit]

A detailed explanation of how the estate came to be associated with the name "Hell's waiting room", noting that it was first coined by a Daily Mail journalist to score a cheap political point, and often used in the media afterwards only to highlight a case of negative stereotyping, is fine. To include it as a standalone, pejorative term used to imply that this is the mainstream view of the estate is not. Blackberry Sorbet (talk • contribs) 01:48, 7 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

As the tl;dr addition suggests, I realised by the time I had finished that screed that I might have been better employed to just write the section in the article myself. By then it was late, however, and I didn't believe I would be able to do it coherently. The estate has been blighted by many, many problems - even before it was completed in the 70s, it was attracting a good deal of negative coverage. But I think it's important to avoid falling into the Mail's trap and stereotyping the estate and the residents. I will have a crack at it this weekend, assistance/comments welcome. Blackberry Sorbet (talk • contribs) 12:21, 7 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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