Talk:Dulaim

Issues with entire article

"oh come on, you could've left in more info than 'that.. the article has issues yes, that's why the tags are there, how bout we just edit out the POV stuff instead of the entire article?"

Because I have neither the knowledge nor the inclination to clean up some antagonist's screed. I already asked someone who edits related topics if he wanted to fix the page; he did not respond. My initial reaction was to simply delete the page, but I had the same reaction you did. Then I thought to merely leave the introduction, but I cannot verify that the tribe has "over nine million people" or that its history "goes back to pre-Islamic times and millions descend from the tribe today in Iraq and neighboring countries such as Syria and Jordan." Actually, I do not even know if this is a real tribe, or instead a group of people pretending to greatness and antiquity. Given the history of the article's creator and only substantial editor (and sockpuppets), this would not be far-fetched. If you want to fix it, go for it; but the article needs to be rebuilt from scratch, independently verifying all its statements. —Centrx→talk • 00:20, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, on further inspection, the page also contains copyright infringements (e.g. "Ottoman+forces+continued+to+assist+the"), so even if the article were not entirely the product of a POV warrior, its text is not trustable as eligible for inclusion. —Centrx→talk • 00:26, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

If you're referring to the pdf study, how is that a copyright infringement? He doesn't copy the entire study does he? The editor just quotes a part of it and gives a citation (although not to the pdf study but maybe that's where the study got it's info from) I'm not certain but I thought it's permissable to quote a portion of copyrighted work as long as it's referenced?

Otherwise, agreed. It does need to be completely overhauled, and I'll take up the task but not all at once, over time i'll eventually fix it up. In the meantime, the multiple issues tags are there as a disclaimer of sorts that the article definately needs work and shouldn't be taken as gospel. OlEnglish (talk) 00:31, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Okey-dokey. —Centrx→talk • 00:39, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't know how much is copied. And if some text is copied from that source without quotation marks or any indication that it is a verbatim copy, then it is hard to know how much text is copied from sources we know not about, or for which it is difficult to detect the copying, such as from the off-line sources listed at the bottom of the page. Ironically, text copied verbatim from the Commonwealth Institute is probably more reliable than the editor's other exploits--but if the article is entirely copied, it needs to be entirely re-written. —Centrx→talk • 00:48, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Good point. Maybe a member from Wikiproject Iraq can clean this up once and for all. Btw, I'm moving this discussion to the article's Talk page. OlEnglish (talk) 00:59, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:OlEnglish"

I wouldn't go as far as (almost) deleting the entire article albeit entire sections need to be removed (e.g. List of the clans of Dulaim tribe and Sheiks and Leaders). There is already a request at WikiProject Iraq, but it appears no one is willing to help with this article.

Cheers mate!

Λuα ^{(Operibus anteire)} 07:39, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Recently edited

I recently edited the Dulaim in Iraq section. I know nothing about the subject manner but I rewrote many of the sections in order to improve their readabilty. If an expert wants to review it, that would be much appreciated. If English is not their native langauge I would be more then happy to offer assistance

False information. No sources provided for hugely inflated claims

Hi. The article massive inflates the numbers of the Dulaym tribe in Iraq. I cannot comment on their numbers in Jordan/Syria, but in Iraq this number of Dulaym would mean that almost 95% of the sunni-arab population belong to the dulaym tribe, which is pretty ridiculous. The real number of Dulaym are actually impossible to ascertain with 100% accuracy, but even presuming that 20% of the Sunni-Arab population of Iraq are Dulaym then the numbers would not exceed 1.3M at the most.

Further to this. The claim that large sections of baghdad are "Almost completely Dulaym" are so far from the truth that I really recommend removing it. The claim is so fallacious that its ludicrous. This article has been written from a massively biased POV, I do recommend that it be re-assessed and the original author start to be a bit more "realistic" in their claims about their tribe.

The claim that the 1920 revolt against the British was led by the dulaym is factually incorrect. The 1920 revolt was led by a Sheikh Sha'Lan Abu Jon from the Al Dhuwalim tribe in Rumatha in southern Iraq.

Source:

The political developments in 'Iraq leading up to the rising in the spring of 1935 * Author: A. D. MacDonald M.C. DOI: 10.1080/03068373608730719 journal Journal of The Royal Central Asian Society, Volume 23, Issue 1 January 1936 , pages 27 - 44

In fact with the exception of one Dulaymi, all the Dulaym co-operated with the British during the 1920 revolt and were thus propelled into the positions of authority / government in the subsequent decades. Hayderaziz (talk) 05:46, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

No sources and deletion of "citation needed"

I added some extra information about the dulaim and also added citation needed for unsourced (and pretty wild) claims. Unfortunately the edits were rolled back by an unnamed user. I will not go on a edit war, but it is necessary for the original author or the person who removed my comments to provide sources and proof for their (wildest) claims, especially the items stated above and the items I highlighted with citation needed. Hayderaziz (talk) 05:46, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism by anon. IP 89.139.171.14 & 85.250.197.125

..should be stopped. Stop reverting other editors and make your case here-on the discussion page- otherwise any edit you make will be rolled back. Cheers! Λua∫Wise ^{(Operibus anteire)} 19:58, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

If vandalism continues, I will ask for semi-protection. Λua∫Wise ^{(Operibus anteire)} 16:13, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

the entire article is now a mess.

I havent had time to come on wikipedia for a while. checking back to day I can see that the article on dulaim has gotten worse and worse. Some of the information on this "tribal federation" "Qabila" is only available in arabic, and even in the arabic documents there are two diametrically opposed views of the dulaim. They view themselves as chivalrous, honourable and warrior-like nomads. Whilst the books (written by the city/country folks) vilify them as nothing but desert bandits and parasites. Of course the truth lies somewhere in between, but its something that the "tribes" and "cities" of mesopotamia have not managed to reconcile in 6 millenia... I have little hope of it happening on wikipedia.

Some of the new additions in the article like "dulaim and the Shias" should simply be removed. Its akin to serbs denying the bosnian war crimes or hutus denying the rwandan genocide... it turns the uprising against saddam and the dulaim tribes' siding with saddam against the people (shias and kurds who rose up, form about 78% of the total population) into a shia orchestrated genocide against sunnis in southern Iraq??? even saddam never went that far in his lies!

in addendum, I recommend re-writing the document from scratch, with the participation of the original writer (i'm sure he has valuable information too... just that he's a little bit myopic) but under the control of a moderator who can see if some of the information is far from the truth. Hayderaziz (talk) 20:00, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Since you know that much, and you are on the good side (non-vandalism), how about you fixing it? I mean it would not necessary take that long considering that many are in favour of these sorts of edits. Just be bold mate!

Cheers mate!

Λuα ^{(Operibus anteire)} 21:40, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

He's right, it has gotten worse and worse with different anon editors going back and forth with their on views on who killed who in Iraq etc. I've given it a chance, it's had the slew of tags up there for months now and plus the request at WP:Iraq and it seems noone wants anything to do with this article. I wish I had the knowledge and the time to go and verify all that material but it seems that I don't so the best action now would be to just trim it to the very basics as in that edit. OlEnglish (talk) 00:08, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Dulaim

The Dulaim 1

The Dulaim, the largest semi-nomadic tribe in this area, state that they came to Iraq under the leadership of one Thamir, from the Dulaimiyat Springs in central Arabia. They are Sunnis of the Shafiite sect. Numbering approximately 26,000 men, they pos- sessed cultivated lands on both banks of the Euphrates from Imam Hamza to Al Qaim.

About 50 per cent of the tribe were settled agriculturists, the remainder being nomads who raised sheep and camels, moving both into the eastern Shamiya and into the Jazira for their winter graz- ing. The nomadic sections usually left their summer habitat on the Euphrates about September and returned in April. No definite area or routes could be laid down for the migration of the nomad element as their movements were governed by the quantity of graz- ing available in the various areas.

1 This introductory section is based on data obtained prior to 1921. During 1934, wherever possible, I checked this information. See also "A Handbook of Arabia" (vol. 1, pp. 53-54, London, 1920); Ashkenazi (1938); Ayrout (1938); Charles (1939); and von Oppenheim (vol. 1, pp. 186-189, 1939).

The Dulaim shared the pastures of the Amarat, with whom they were on friendly terms, in the eastern Shamiya. In the Jazira the nomad portion of the tribe sometimes moved as far north as Tikrit on the right bank of the Tigris.

The agricultural portions of the Dulaim cultivate a strip of land on both banks of the Euphrates, and along the Aziziya, Abu Ghuraib, Saqlawiya, and subsidiary canals.

The crops produced by the Dulaim are chiefly wheat, barley, rice, mash, maize, and millet (dukhn). Dates and other fruit such as apples, figs (tin), and pomegranates are grown in gardens sur- rounding the towns. The Dulaim export grain both up and down the Euphrates to the large market towns on the river, and also to Kubaisa and Ar Rahhaliya for sale to the desert tribes and for trans- desert market towns.

Toward the end of 1918 the Dulaim were closely allied with the Amarat section of the Anaiza, and at enmity with the Shammar Jarba and the settled Shiah tribes of the Lower Euphrates.

When the insurrection of 1920 finally had been subdued, and Sheikh Dhari ibn Dhahir of the Zoba tribe had fled, many sections of that tribe agreed to acknowledge Ali Sulaiman of the Dulaim as their Paramount Chief and became part of the Dulaim.

A list of Zoba sections, which either affiliated themselves with the Dulaim or set up as independent tribes, follows:

Dulaim Luhaib Shuwartan Bani Zaid Qara-Ghul Khurushiyin Saadan Shiti Subaihat Sumailat Chitadah Shaar Faddaghah Dulaim Haiwat Qartan Hitawiyin

The main part of the Qara-Ghul tribe, which was located on the left bank of the Euphrates about six miles downstream from Imam Hamza, had been independent since about 1840. The Qara-Ghul of the Zoba was a small colony from this tribe.

DULAIM TRIBESMEN MEASURED AT HADITHA

At Haditha on May 21 and 22, 1934, I examined 137 Dulaim tribesmen. The arrangements were made by the late Dr. H. C. Reid, Medical Officer of the Iraq Petroleum Company, whose guests we were.

Age. — The average age for 136 Dulaimis was 32.40 (range 20-64). Sixty-six per cent of the individuals were under thirty-five years of age. On the basis of age grouping the sample obtained should be a representative series of these tribesmen. No. 1076 was omitted.

MORPHOLOGICAL CHARACTERS OF DULAIMIS

Skin. — The color was darker than that of the average Arab of the Kish area. Individually it ranged from that of a typical southern European to dark brown. The constant exposure to the weather, combined with the general neglect of washing except for ritual ablutions in which sand often replaced water, tended to give the older individuals a weather-beaten appearance. In general, the Dulaimis possessed a skin color little different from that of the Arabs from the "Fertile Crescent" to Morocco.

Nos. 1062 and 1124 (PI. 36) had some Negro blood. No. 1109 had very dark hands and the color of his body was considerably darker than that of the average individual.

Hair. — The hair color varied from dark brown to black, which I now think should have been classified as very dark brown. No trace of blondism was present. In form the hair had low waves, seven individuals (5.30 per cent) possessing deep wavy hair. The three men recorded as having curly-frizzly hair indicate the presence of Negro blood, a feature which appears in the photographic anal- yses. Ninety-five men (72.52 per cent) had hair of medium tex- ture. An almost equal proportion of the remainder occurred at both extremes of the scale. The coarser element might also be associated with a Negroid element. Sixty-six hair samples were obtained.

Hair on the head was abundant. No. 1124, who was com- pletely bald, had no hair on his entire body. He stated that he had always been hairless, as were his three brothers, but that his parents possessed the normal amount of hair (PI. 36).

On the other hand abnormal hairiness of the body was not re- corded, and the general impression retained was that the amount of body hair was average for any group of Arabs in Iraq.

The eyes, or more properly the eye slits, were horizontal as in Europeans.

No. 1046 had bright blue eyes. He stated that in the village of Khraair more than half the population have blue eyes. He explained his own case by saying that when his mother was pregnant she saw a man with blue eyes which influenced the eye color of her unborn child. Many Dulaimis agreed that there were numerous persons with blue eyes among this tribe. The blue element was

present in Nos. 1016, 1047, 1090, 1108, 1112, 1119, and 1120. Nos. 1021, 1036, and 1037 had light green-brown eyes. No. 1065 was almost blind in the right eye. No. 1074 had poor vision in his left eye. No. 1076 had poor vision in both eyes. He had applied kubeli mixed with sugar in both eyes. This gave them a red color. No. 1105 was slightly cross-eyed, the right eye being out of alignment. Nose. — The majority (70.80 per cent) of the noses were straight in profile, with only 13.87 per cent convex. Half of the Dulaimis had medium nasal wings, with 30.37 per cent in the narrowest cate- gories. The remainder (16.29 per cent) of the alae were medium- flaring or flaring, once again indicating the presence of a Negroid element. Two men had thicker than average nasal tips and one man was recorded in the double plus classification.

1067, 1078, 1079, 1086, 1089, 1097, 1098, 1113, 1122, 1123, and 1142. Nos. 1018, 1055, 1058, 1063, 1110, and 1121 had fair teeth, while Nos. 1053, 1060, 1075, 1083, and 1101 were poor. The teeth were very bad in Nos. 1059, 1065, and 1119. No. 1054 had marked-over occlusion. No. 1085 had teeth markedly sloping inward. No. 1114 had lower front teeth showing much wear. No. 1095 had gold fillings in his front teeth and No. 1119 had three teeth covered with gold. No. 1062 had a broken right upper incisor as a result of a gun accident.

Musculature. — In general this was either good or excellent, although there were a few obvious cases of malnutrition. The outdoor activities of these tribesmen who, to some extent, are pas- toral nomads as well as agriculturists, tend to produce a healthy and virile group.

Nos. 1056, 1097, 1108, and 1110 had well-developed muscles, but Nos. 1017, 1048, and 1125 were in poor physical condition.

Health. — The majority (91.91 per cent) were in good health. Nine Dulaimis (6.62 per cent) were recorded as being in fair health.

The average Dulaimi had low wavy hair, medium in texture, and extremely dark brown merging into black in color. The eyes were various shades of brown but two individuals had definitely blue eyes. The sclera were clear and the iris mainly homogeneous. The nose was straight in profile with medium or compressed wings, although there was a group with medium-flaring wings. The occlusion was normal. The musculature and health were good.

There now remains the task of grouping the total series of Du- laimis 1 according to the Harvard and Keith classificatory systems for stature, sitting height (trunk length), minimum frontal diameter, head breadth, cephalic index, nasal height, nasal breadth, and nasal index.

Stature. — The Dulaimis were medium to tall according to both systems. There is remarkably little difference in the groupings. The average stature for 136 individuals was 167.67 (range 152-181), which is slightly higher than the average for Southwestern Asia.

Sitting Height (Trunk Length). — The Keith system shows that the majority (58.82 per cent) have medium to long trunk lengths. The six men (4.41 per cent) with very long (90.0+) trunk lengths and the one with a very short (x-74.9) trunk indicate the maximum of variation. The relative sitting height index of 50.08 (range 44-59) together with the stature groupings reveals that the trunk length and leg length are approximately equal but an increase in trunk length is followed by an advance in stature.

Minimum Frontal Diameter. — The forehead was narrow or very narrow in 73.53 per cent of the cases. The majority (64.71 per cent) fall into the narrow category, the next greatest number (25 per cent) being wide. Two distinct elements appear to be present.

Head Breadth. — The mean for this measurement was 141.34 (range 132-155) with 191.04 for the head length. The Keith system reveals no Dulaimi in the very narrow category and only six Dulai- mis in the very wide division. The majority (57.35 per cent) pos- sessed wide heads but 38.24 per cent were narrow. Two distinct elements appear to be present here. These may well be the straight- nosed and convex-nosed dolichocephals.

Cephalic Index. — According to the Harvard system the majority (79.41 per cent) were dolichocephalic, with only one brachycephal in the entire series of 136 Dulaimis.

The Keith classificatory system reveals a rather different group- ing. The majority (56.62 per cent) were dolichocephalic but there were six brachycephals and no ultrabrachycephals. The most interesting new group was formed by the thirteen (9.56 per cent) ultradolichocephals (x-70.0).

The mean cephalic index was 74.04 (range 65-84.9). Therefore the Dulaimis were dolicho-mesocephals with a strong tendency toward ultradolichocephaly.

Facial Measurements. — The upper facial height was medium long (48.53 per cent) or medium short (31.62 per cent). Twenty- five Dulaimis (18.38 per cent) had long (76-x) upper faces.

The total length of the face was either medium long (55.15 per cent) or medium short (34.56 per cent). It is remarkable that only eleven men (8.09 per cent) fell into the long face (130-x) category.

The majority (56.62 per cent) of the Dulaimis were leptopro- sopic with 8.82 per cent in the euryprosopic classification.

Thus the faces were long, primarily the result of long upper faces.

Nasal Measurement and Indices. — The nose is one of the most significant racial criteria in Southwestern Asia. This fact was demonstrated clearly in my studies of the modern peoples of Iran (Field, 1939).

The Dulaimis possessed medium or short noses, there being seven men (5.15 per cent) in the long nose (60-x) category.

The nose was medium narrow (51.47 per cent) or medium wide (38.24 per cent). Ten men had very narrow noses and four possessed wide noses, indicating Negro blood.

The majority (64.71 per cent) of the Dulaimis were leptorrhine. Forty-five men (33.09 per cent) were mesorrhine but only three fell into the platyrrhine category. This latter again suggests the presence of Negro blood.

The Dulaimis appear to belong to the straight-nosed, lepto- prosopic and dolichocephalic division of the Mediterranean Race which may be termed the Iraqo-Mediterranean group in contra- distinction to the convex-nosed, leptoprosopic, and dolichocephalic Iranian Plateau Race (cf. Field, 1939).

These speculations will be examined in detail in the final part of this volume when all my anthropometric data can be utilized for discussion.

The average Dulaimi is medium in stature, and medium to long in trunk length, and possesses a narrow forehead, a wide to narrow head breadth, a dolicho-mesocephalic index, a long upper face, a medium total facial height and a leptoprosopic index, a nose medium in length, medium narrow or medium wide and a leptorrhine to mesorrhine index.

The Dulaimis are believed to be of mixed blood and the general impression obtained during the study of them suggests that they belong neither to the pure Beduin type of the North Arabian and Syrian Deserts, nor to the sedentary Arab groups of central and southern Iraq. The average Dulaimi is thus, from physical aspect, not pure in type, but this group is particularly interesting because it appears to combine the physical features of the Beduin and the Arab.1Hader (talk) 2:34, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Reset article

Who !votes to invoke {{reset}} on this article? -- OlEnglish ^(Talk) 01:23, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Support

Cheers!

80.90.173.12 (talk) 14:44, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Nevermind. It's been cleaned up by a resourceful editor. -- œ^™ 14:41, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

ISIS?

There are zero mentions of this tribe's involvement with ISIS, both pre 2012 and post 2012, in this article. This is a crucial topic 142.215.214.7 (talk) 18:31, 12 April 2023 (UTC)