Talk:Kebra Nagast

Untitled

There were two different articles on this subject, each with a different spelling. For what it's worth, the source I have on hand, African Ark, spells this as "Kebra Nagast." -- Gyrofrog (talk) 20:13, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

This book is circulating in two different translations, another goes by Nagast and another with Negast. First one is translated by E.A. Wallis Budge and later by Miguel F. Brooks.

There's also another book that, Fetha Negast - Law Of The Kings which most likely should be mentioned in conjuction of Kebra Negast - Glory Of The Kings — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rasjani~enwiki (talk • contribs) 21:50, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Rastafarianans

i dont believe rastas should be mentioned here they're beliefs are totally different than that of an ethiopians plus alot of ethiopians dont believe the kebra negast is the ultimate authority. i have no citations so i wont edit but i would appreciate it if someone else does.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.194.163.146 (talk • contribs) 21:39, 28 August 2006

I disagree. The Rastafarians should not be ignored and the Kebra Negast (The Glory of the Kings) is perhaps second only to the Bible in their belief system. I found a copy of this book yesterday in Rasta Paradise in Liberty City, Miami, FL. - Brad Watson, Miami (talk) 10:49, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

The fact that these is even a debate about this shows that it is at least relevant. More specifically I would say Rastafarians should be mentioned here as this is a religious text and Rastas are a religious group. What should be considered relevant in an article on a religious text if not those who claim it as part of their culture? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:240:CC00:50:5422:D6F8:CDB8:875 (talk) 02:29, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

You've got an anonymous poster who never posted again and a blocked kook (if you saw his other posts you'd understand). What we would need is discussion by independent sources meeting WP:RS discussing their use of it. Doug Weller talk 14:47, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

Agrippa's translation of the Kebra Nagast

I have removed the following text from the article, in part because it is very implausible that Cornelius Agrippa the Alchemist not only obtained a copy of the Kebra Nagast before 1528 but was able to translate it from Ge'ez (which was unknown in Europe), but mostly because a search in online library catalogs (which included the Library of Congress & the British Library) failed to verify the existence of a copy of this book. --llywrch 08:40, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Extended content

Among the most complete, and least known, translations of the Kebra Nagast, is the exhaustive work of Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa Historia de las cosas de Etiopía (Toledo, 1528) -- a greatly amplified account. Agrippa was an alchemist, a physician, and expert in magical sciences and Kabala; he resided in the courts of Maximilian I and Charles V; eventually he suffered imprisonment in Grenoble by order of King Francis I of France, where he died.

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"The Glory of the Kings" & publisher info

The Glory of the Kings - Brad Watson, Miami (talk) 10:54, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

There's absolutely no reason to play favorites with that publisher, especially since the work is public domain and there are quite a few public domain translations linked to it. Ian.thomson (talk) 14:09, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Ian Thomson(74=T20+H8+O+M13+S19+O+N14), it is a legitimate source, right? "I played no favorites with that publisher", I just added another legitimate source which is what scholars do. Let the record show that you seem to oppose/block me at every opportunity and with every excuse imaginable. This excuse is inexcusable! Therefore, you must be reported. (The rest of this dialogue will be found on http://7seals.yuku.com ) - Brad Watson, Miami (talk) 16:10, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

I can't think of a good reason why we would use that source rather than Forgotten Books. It certainly seems promotional to me. And what's this "you must be reported" business? Dougweller (talk) 16:24, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

I also can't think of a good reason to continue the discussion on your personal website. If you have something to say about maintaining or improving the article, say it here. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 16:39, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

For those unfamiliar with the OP, Brad Watson has done pretty much nothing but push fringe material, often based on an idiosyncratic numerology. Ian.thomson (talk) 19:35, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

References

Improved wording of 1st Paragraph

I improved the wording of the first paragraph... The Kebra Nagast (var. Kebra Negast, Ge'ez ክብረ ነገሥት, kəbrä nägäst), or The Glory of the Kings, is an account written in Ge'ez of the origins of the Solomonic line of the Emperors of Ethiopia. The text, in its existing form, is at least 700 years old and is considered by many Ethiopian Christians and Rastafarians to be an inspired and a reliable work. It contains an account of how the Queen of Sheba/Queen Makeda of Ethiopia met King Solomon and about how the Ark of the Covenant came to Ethiopia with Menelik I (Menyelek). It also discusses the conversion of the Ethiopians from the worship of the Sun, Moon and stars to that of the "Lord God of Israel". As the Ethiopianist Edward Ullendorff explained in the 1967 Schweich Lectures, "The Kebra Nagast is not merely a literary work, but it is the repository of Ethiopian national and religious feelings." - Brad Watson, Miami (talk) 16:19, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

References

Question regarding weight

This is a work which seems to be, basically, foundational to Ethiopian Judaism and Ethiopian Christianity, but which has little if any support or high regard outside of Ethiopia. To quote The Sign and the Seal, by Graham Hancock, Touchstone, 1992, ISBN 0-671-86541-2 “Amongst the latter [the story of Solomon and Sheba] the oldest still surviving was contained in a thirteenth-century manuscript as the Kebra Nagast – which was greatly revered and which most Ethiopians believed to tell 'the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.'” But I can find little if any discussion of the idea in the Fahlbusch Encyclopedia of Christianity, first published by Brill, later translated and expanded by Eerdman's, which is considered both one of the most authoritative and lengthy reference works on Christianity out there.

How should we deal with content related to this topic in articles other than those regarding broader Christianity and Judaism, not just specifically its Ethiopian forms? John Carter (talk) 18:22, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

You are quite mistaken in your pronouncement that this "has little if any support or high regard outside of Ethiopia." It also has wide support among the Rastafari movement around the world. So unless you are suggesting that these views as well as Ethiopian's views of their own history be discounted as illegitimate, what is your point? Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 18:30, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't understand your objection here, John. Are you saying that the Kebra Nagast is not notable, & that this article should be deleted? Quite obviously this subject is notable because it expounds the religious & political ideology of traditional Ethiopian thought. (Til Eulenspiegel's point about this document's importance to Rastafari thought simply offers another point of notability.) If you are concerned that it is not the subject of the book you cite, well, Western reference works have often done a poor job of covering topics relating to Ethiopia, let alone Africa. For instance, the Funk and Wagnall's Dictionary of Folklore, Myth & Legend, considered an authoritative work in its field, does a surprisingly abysmally poor job of covering Ethiopian topics.

All of this depends on a point in WP:NOTE I can't find at the moment, but has been cited in the past concerning notability in science, technology, & mathematics: if a topic is notable in a given subject, then it is satisfies the notability requirement. An example would be Horatio Alger: because his writings are important to understanding American culture & ideology, despite the fact he is of limited importance to the rest of the world, he is notable. -- llywrch (talk) 18:04, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Acknowledging the Rasta support as well, which I guess I forgot to mention, the question here is not so much about this article per se, but about how much weight to give material about it in other articles. The question was really more in terms of how much weight to give material related to this subject in other articles dealing with Old Testament figures like Moses and Solomon in articles specifically about them. There never were any questions about the notable of this article per se, which is clearly established, but rather about the relative weight to be given it in other articles, dealing with topics of rather broader religious topics, like Moses and Solomon, and how much weight to give material related to this topic in those articles. John Carter (talk) 18:15, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

I just looked at them, and Solomon looks like it has the appropriate weight and impartiality currently. I haven't noticed any attempt to introduce this work into Moses, and it generally is not used as one of the primary sources for him, did you have some relevant addition there you had in mind? Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 23:51, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

What is the etymology of Kebra Nagast

What is the source of the etymology of the term Kebra Nagast because i understand this term as "Cobra Snake", a reptilian (Nagas; Vedic), Isis(Isida) worship. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.165.118.168 (talk • contribs)

I can assure you that has nothing to do with the etymology (you know how sometimes words in unrelated languages sound similar, it's incredibly easy to create false etymologies that way...) The name of the book in Ge'ez means only "Glory of Kings" and uses the South Semitic roots k-b-r, glory, honor, and n-g-s, king / to rule, govern. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 13:37, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Ow, ow, ow, "Cobra snake" just makes my head hurt. The only way that suggestion could begin to make sense is if Ethiopia, East Africa, or the whole Middle East didn't have its own languages. I could begin to understand looking for an Arabic etymology, or maybe even Hausa or even Khoi-San, but going all the way to India? What? Ian.thomson (talk) 23:01, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Not to mention, as I'm informed by wikt:cobra, that word comes from Latin. There is a Semitic root naHash meaning snake but it is not the same gloss as nagast, kings (actually negest is more accurate for pronunciation) and anyway South Semitic including Geez uses naHash to mean "brass, bronze" instead of snake! Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 23:38, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Historical vs Inspired

@Robert the Broof: To answer your question, I am pointing you to the official website of the Ethiopian Tewahedo Church in English http://www.ethiopianorthodox.org/english/canonical/books.html You will see the books considered "canonical" or part of the "inspired by God" at sections 1 and 2. The books considered "Historical" begin on section 7 and include "the Honor of Kings" (English translation of the Kebre Negast). The book is and always has been considered an historic book but NEVER considered "inspired" (i.e. by God) in the sense that you wrote, as the Ethiopian Orthodox church takes the concept very seriously. No Ethiopian Orthodox priest or deacon will ever say this, as the "inspired by God" books are all very clearly in the canon. Like I said, if you want to designate it as inspired to Rastafarians then go ahead as I cannot speak to that, but you cannot put the two religions together on this point.Trinacrialucente (talk) 23:59, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

www.ethiopianorthodox.org/english/canonical/books.html

I should point out that ethiopianorthodox.org appears not to be the official website of the Ethiopian Tewahedo Church. It ostensibly reprints official church material, but the website itself does not appear to be offically affiliated with the church. Please see WP:RSN/Archive 179#Ethiopianorthodox.org. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 18:58, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

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Sources

History of the World Christian Movement [1] nvented History, Fabricated PowerThe Study of Islamic OriginsPopular Controversies in World History The Cambridge History of Africa: From c. 500 B.C. to A.D. 1050 Doug Weller talk 16:34, 4 July 2022 (UTC)