Talk:List of pro-Palestinian protests on university campuses in 2024

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That is bold[edit]

My instinct was to WP:BLANKANDREDIRECT, but given you are a main contributor who also created the original article I'm refraining. Personally I think an East/West split of lists would of been more appropriate, as I don't see this article solving the problem (it's still at 8,000 words). CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 23:18, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@ElijahPepe and CommunityNotesContributor: nice work. :) Boud (talk) 23:47, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I was expecting a WP:TROUT prior to a compliment. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 23:50, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would suggest separating by within the United States and outside of it, and further subdivide into states, such as "2024 pro-Palestinian protests on university campuses in California" or "2024 pro-Palestinian protests on university campuses in Massachusetts". elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 23:58, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
True, this can all come later if the article expands (similar to George Floyd protest articles). Hence supporting current split for now. Hard to tell whether it'll need state splits or international split as of yet. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 00:01, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are four interstate regions of the US (West, Midwest, South, Northeast) per the US Census Bureau that should be an uncontroversial geographical division for a further split if someone is bold enough. Since to some degree these correspond to various shades in the US political spectrum, these may also turn out to be useful sociologically, although that will only be in WP:RS in the distant future, so cannot be an argument right now. (The only drawback is that most of the inter-region boundaries do not look like rivers, so there won't be much opportunity for WP:TROUT awards.) Boud (talk) 00:05, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I like the idea of a four-way split as suggested for the future, sounds logical. It can always expand state-by-state beyond that if the content increases beyond reasonable thresholds. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 00:09, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't agree with this move. It buries an extremely relevant current events topic behind layers of articles, making it harder to find by the public and separating content that belongs together. If the article is too broad, it's because we decided to include all university protests starting in April. If the article needs to be split, run of the mill protest events (which have been occurring since the start of the war) can go back in the main protests article or into their own article. The new development which merits a separate article is Pro-Palestinian protest encampments on university campuses, which is what the article should be called and how we should separate things. Unbandito (talk) 14:43, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Although controversial (because it was without discussion), per WP:SIZESPLIT a split was very much due. This shouldn't bury any content however per WP:SUMMARY: Each subtopic or child article is a complete encyclopedic article in its own right .... Notably the second paragraph of the main article lead is predominantly a summary of the child article. If I'm completely honest, this list isn't exactly an amazing article either. It'd mainly "A protest happened here on date X" on repeat. The fact the most notable aspects of it can be summarised in the main article to a single paragraph is somewhat refreshing. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 18:22, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Amend UK universities with The University of Edinburgh[edit]

On the 5th of May, students at the University of Edinburgh also began an encampment. I would suggest amending this.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C6lmWnboB3s/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== Panji pana (talk) 14:28, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Charliehdb (talk) 10:41, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Articles for certain individual encampments[edit]

I see that aside from Columbia, articles have been written for the encampments at Portland State, Sciences Po, UCLA, and University of Oregon. Are there other individual encampments that have gotten enough coverage to have their own seperate articles? Personally, I think USC, Cal Poly Humboldt, UT Austin, and maybe a couple others have enough notability for articles, but I'd like to hear what others think. TheAmazingRaspberry (talk) 15:52, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Portland and Oregon aren't good examples of encampments with their own articles, they are one paragraph stubs that deserve to be deleted. UT Austin seems reasonable though based on current content (featured also in the response section I noticed), whereas Cal Poly and USC appear to be still only have one paragraph each. Probably best to simply follow WP:GNG and WP:SIGCOV in deciding whether to create a standalone article, rather than based on others opinions though (including mine). CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 13:32, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Split proposal[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
The result of this discussion was general consensus to split, aside from a proposal to change the content/title of the article CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 07:20, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Section United States to List of pro-Palestinian protests on university campuses in the United States in 2024.

Per WP:SIZESPLIT, this article is almost back to 9,000 words, so proposing straight forward split to provide some breathing room. To clarify, this would leave Other countries section making US the child article. Pinging most involved editors: @ElijahPepe, TheAmazingRaspberry, GraziePrego, Kire1975, Faldi00, Askarion, and CarmenEsparzaAmoux: CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 13:57, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure how much good this would do - the other countries material is an extreme minority. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:07, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This was also the same with the split to this article from the parent. More relevantly though, because the U.S. content is the bulk of it, this is why it should be split off, to become an encyclopedic article in it's own right. Then if further splits are needed, such as East/West or NE/SE/NW/SW, as suggested above, then this can come later if required. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 18:00, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would go immediately to the four-way US split plus the non-US page. Especially as the US protests seem to be extending to high school students per social media. However, I'm not doing any major editing work on these pages; I think that (at least in this case of a split or splits), the judgment of those people willing (and able) to do the work should count a lot more than mine.
I'm not sure what would make sense for this article to be redirected/renamed to in the case of a five-way split - would it still make sense as a 'list overview' article, or better that it redirect to (arbitrarily) one of the five? Boud (talk) 22:40, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Am not opposed to a five-way split, my only consideration is that it can come later if necessary. At present, with U.S. protests split off from other countries, it wouldn't be based on article size. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 23:42, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - List of George Floyd protests in the United States did it state by state. Kire1975 (talk) 23:31, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This article isn't about George Floyd protests and doesn't have even close to the same amount of content, so no offence intended, but your opposition appears irrelevant here. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 23:41, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep it civil and start with the bigger states. Kire1975 (talk) 23:50, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As I said no offence intended, just the comparison seems a bit insulting in itself. For sure, any major states/campus protests could easily split off to a standalone article. In the meantime, I'm proposing a split to U.S. protests, which doesn't seem controversial. If anything, splitting to U.S. protests takes state splits one step nearer. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 23:53, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Change to support for obvious reasons. Kire1975 (talk) 02:53, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support. (As a note, I only appear to have high contribution to this article because I ran InternetArchiveBot on here and archived 50 references. In terms of content, I haven't added that much compared to others.)
That being said- Support, because it's a sensible idea to reduce the size of this article, it splits out the US content to a place designated for itself too. Currently, I think this article suffers from overly focusing on the US. Yes, that is where most of the protest activity has occurred, but for instance, the introduction discusses the US instances nearly exclusively and the only reactions mentioned are those of prominent Americans and Israelis. We're missing a huge amount of information- for instance, the Australian encampments have received huge discussion from the political leaders in Australia, but that content is missing. Likewise in every single country that has had encampments, I'm sure the political leaders of all those countries have been asked for comment. Splitting the US content out to its own article gives us breathing room to make this page a more international overview, and then the US one focuses on the place where most of the encampment activity has occurred. GraziePrego (talk) 01:56, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose : A better way to trim the scope of this article would be to focus on protest encampments. Protests on campuses have been happening since the start of the war, so the scope of the article is already flawed and arbitrary for discussing campus protests of any sort that took place on or after the start of the Columbia protest encampment. Regular old protests don't rise to the level of notability that encampments do, and moving coverage of them to more general protest articles or a child article of this one would keep all the most notable, enduring campus protests in the same article and trim out regions with little to no activity beyond a march or two. It would also reunite non-encampment protests from before and after April into a single article, which would make more sense. The international scope of the encampment movement is part of its significance, and an emphasis on this should be preserved. Unbandito (talk) 04:16, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The scope of this article is protests, not encampments. That would be a suggestion for a title change and there was already a recent discussion on the main page over what the title should be, that this page split from. While I do understand your point about regular protests not gaining notability, in the context of pro-Palestinian protests, they have still gained notability (even if only because of the encampments). There is also considerable overlap between the protests and encampments, such as protests pre and post encampments, so would be hard to separate while retaining the overall context. As for campus protests pre-April, there is very little coverage.
The split would otherwise better emphasise international protests, which if anything have become more prominent this week, leaving a child summary of U.S. protests in this article. There is certainly enough notability for international protests to be a standalone article. At present even Australia, Netherlands and United Kingdom could be split off. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 09:53, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I estimate about 13,600 words. Boud (talk) 08:13, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support I would split the article into two--one for protests at U.S. campuses, and another for protests at colleges in other countries. The protests began in the United States, and later spread to other countries. JohnAdams1800 (talk) 21:20, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Can we put together a table?[edit]

As it stands, the organization of information is weak at best. Could we draft a table to arrange these unis into, to make it easier to organize info? Say

Uni: University of Freedom ......Students arrested:#########...... Faculty arrested:########......... Total arrested: ######## Length of protest: ######## Notes: ABCDEFG Snokalok (talk) 13:48, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is a good idea. A lot of the protests listed don't have anything other than start date listed. There should be other articles per country if there is a lot in that country, like there is for the George Floyd protests, because these encampments are spreading with no slowing down unless forcefully prevented from doing so by police. At the present moment, it should be US, Australia and UK, with other countries in the list article, with one main overview article. MarkiPoli (talk) 10:29, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 May 2024[edit]

remove "The following day, Johns Hopkins announced an agreement had been reached with the protesters and the encampment dispersed". The protests at Johns Hopkins were NOT dispersed! The camp is still there and is growing everyday. Also, they have not reached any agreement. In fact, they failed to reach an agreement with the university. Jewish and Israeli students are afraid for their safety

resources: (beyond being a jhu student myself) https://www.cbsnews.com/baltimore/news/pro-palestinian-protesters-told-to-end-encampment-at-johns-hopkins-university-or-be-disciplined/ CompBrain841 (talk) 14:21, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done: I updated the page, I'm not sure if it was a fake out by the students, but JHU said an agreement was reached on April 29 to only protest from 10am-8pm and dismantle the encampment, but the encampment was still there the next day, and they have subsequently ignored the May 8 deadline to disperse. MarkiPoli (talk) 10:46, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 May 2024[edit]

Under the California Heading Add:

On Wednesday, May 8th, students from Saint Mary's College of California organized an all-day walkout in solidarity with pro-palestinean student movements around the world (1). On May 9th, students from Saint Mary's College of California constructed a vigil around the central De La Salle statue (2).

Source 1: https://www.stmarys-ca.edu/news/unrest-and-calls-change-amid-global-conflict

Source 2: https://www.instagram.com/sspcsmc/ BrokenTeddy (talk) 22:53, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

    • Palestinian **
BrokenTeddy (talk) 22:54, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
 Not done. Please provide more reliable sources for your edit. The first appears to be from before the event occurred, while the second is from Instagram, which is not considered a reliable source. TheAmazingRaspberry (talk) 01:50, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 May 2024[edit]

Under Italy: add Bologna, Milan (Università Statale di Milano), Palermo, Padova, Venice and Naples. Add the subsequent websites as references: N.1 and N.2.

Thank you :)
- LametinoWiki (talk) 16:35, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Add Carleton College under Minnesota[edit]

Carleton College in Minnesota set up an encampment on May 9 during the Board of Trustees’ visit. Sources: https://thecarletonian.com/19216/news/19216/ https://www.carleton.edu/chaplain/news/uplifting-our-shared-humanity/ Nobodyatallest555 (talk) 23:03, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done. TheAmazingRaspberry (talk) 01:47, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 May 2024[edit]

Change: "Jewish student demonstrators at Columbia have insisted the protests are not antisemitic.[ref]"

To: "While some Jewish student demonstrators at Columbia have insisted the protests are not antisemitic[ref], a group of over 500 Jewish students at that university condemned the protests as antisemitic in an open letter [new ref = https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/09/nyregion/columbia-university-jewish-students-letter.html]"

Rationale: The original statement wildly over-generalizes based on a reference that quotes two Jewish students at Columbia. More recent information offers a different assessment of the degree to which Jewish students feel that the protests at Columbia are or are not antisemitic. Bgrove1 (talk) 11:26, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done that content cannot be edited here, as it is an excerpt of 2024 pro-Palestinian protests on university campuses. Please could you propose it there for someone to look at? The section on Antisemitism allegations could otherwise do with a better short summary in the lead overall. Pinging @Sawerchessread who created that section who may be able to help directly with this matter. The well-referenced first line "Several protests have been criticized for alleged antisemitism" seems more due to me than a he said she said type summary. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 12:09, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've added the suggested line to lead per MOS:LEADREL and good sourcing. I'm not convinced the line "Jewish student demonstrators" is misleading here, but have modified to "Pro-Palestinian and Jewish student protesters" to avoid any misinterpretation/generalising, given it is widely accepted that Pro-Palestinian and Jewish student protesters do not see the protests as antisemitic. I otherwise suggest that reference you provided is added to the body under the relevant section, to go alongside the surveys from Jewish students. Based on the line "61% of the [Jewish] students in the survey considered language used at the protests antisemitic" ref, I don't think the open letter is LEADREL, as would otherwise over-emphasise and generalise the opinion that the Jewish students believe protests are antisemitic, when in contrast 39% of Jewish students don't believe this. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 12:49, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
nytimes notes that the letters signatories is only 10% of the jewish student population at Columbia.
in general, I am not convinced by ideas that Jewish pro-Palestinian students don't exist. they seem to be at least a sizeable minority.
in the antisemitism allegations, i included a survey by hillel. i do know hillel is a fair bit zionist, so the poll is probably a teeny bit biased, but as there is no other large scale study of jewish students around the country, i included it. It makes sure to note the majority of Jewish students consider the protests to be hateful. User:Sawerchessread (talk) 14:17, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

photo legend is incorrect[edit]

i don’t have 500 edits (yet) so i can’t update it myself; the second photo clockwise from top is mcgill university and not university of sydney. ApplePiePoliceState (talk) 13:34, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The second photo is categorised as Sydney [1] and the third labeled as McGill [2], so not sure what the error is here. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 14:48, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

2024 pro-Palestinian protests on university campuses in the Netherlands[edit]

The Dutch section has become quite large and I believe part of this article could be split off and created into a new article, List of pro-Palestinian protests on university campuses in the Netherlands in 2024 or one with a similar title. I see there's already pages for the protests at Radboud University and University of Amsterdam, so it makes more sense to me to keep the information here limited and then go in depth and link the relevant articles on the split off page. I don't know if there's much to argue but I don't want to do it without discussing/mentioning it here first. AnarchistiCookie (talk) 20:02, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Best to do it before someone opposes If it passes WP:GNG and WP:SIGCOV then it can be split. Have thought for a while that Australia, Netherlands and United Kingdom could easily split off already. At 5,500 words the article certainly isn't WP:TOOBIG, but that doesn't mean that content couldn't be better organised elsewhere. I think Pro-Palestinian protests on university campuses in the Netherlands in 2024 would be fine. I'm already regretting List of pro-Palestinian protests on university campuses in the United States in 2024, as it's an indepth article regarding all the protests there, not simply a list of them. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 20:16, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also I just realised the Responses sections of Australia, Netherlands and United Kingdom should in fact be in the main article, under the Responses/other countries section; given this is a list of protests, not responses to them. So if you were to split Netherlands as "List of...", the Responses should go to the main article. But if you split as I suggested, then you should take the responses with you. Makes me realise why Australia & UK should be split already as well. I won't move any content yet, as I think splitting is a better option, but otherwise the Response section of the main article is missing critical commentary from other countries at present (that alternatively could be linked to child articles section in the near future if splits occur). Basically anything that's not simply listing protests isn't due in this article, based on the current title at least. Hope that makes some sense. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 20:53, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with your points; in fact I have done just that for the Netherlands (split off the text to a new article, Pro-Palestinian protests on university campuses in the Netherlands in 2024, with all the relevant information incl. response section there, and kept a basic list here). The main article's response section needs to be more elaborated, also regarding political/legal consequences (e.g., issues that are not only of national interest, such as universities actually cutting ties). AnarchistiCookie (talk) 21:01, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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