Talk:Republic of Artsakh/Archive 5

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Jan 1 dissolution date annulled?

Feel like this is better sorted out in its own section than as a side-discussion of the above section.

On December 22nd, two outlets reported that on October 19, the president of Artsakh annulled the order to dissolve remaining Artsakhi government institutions on January 1st. It is not known why it seemingly took two months for this to become publicly available knowledge.

(source 1) (source 2) (source 3).

From Hetq:

"Shahramanyan and the republic’s legislators, at the time, argued the decree was necessary to stop the hostilities and save lives.

Shahramanyan’s adviser, Vladimir Grigoryan, told RFE/RL’s Armenian language service that the Artsakh leader nullified the decree on October 19.

Grigoryan didn’t say why the nullification wasn’t publicized earlier."

Of course, this doesn't change the de facto situation. I have no idea if Artsakh still has de facto control over an inch of Karabakh anymore. But we can probably remove the claim that this order became effective on January 1st, 2024 as it seems to have been reversed.

 Vanilla  Wizard 💙 00:18, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

The above sources only quote Grigoryan, but I found a more direct source quoting Shahramanyan himself and then his office: Source 4.

From France 24:

"But in a surprise move on Friday, Shahramanyan rolled back on the announcement in comments given in Yerevan, the capital of Armenia.

“There is no document... of the Republic of Artsakh (Karabakh) stipulating the dissolution of government institutions.”

His office told AFP separately that the September 26 decree was 'empty paper,' adding: “No document can lead to the dissolution of the republic, which was established by people's will.”"

 Vanilla  Wizard 💙 00:30, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Artsakh has not had any de facto control over the area since October, as far as I am aware. This is entirely about de jure dissolution, and to state that such a thing happened on January 1 we would need a source to say it did. Chessrat ^{(talk, contributions)} 01:38, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

I see that there's a Russian source cited in the article to claim that Artsakh dissolved. But it only cites the September decree as a source so I'm not sure it's strong enough quality to be relied on. Chessrat ^{(talk, contributions)} 01:44, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

For the time being we can say that the dissolution date is according to the original decree but I am not sure if we can really say yet that it is de jure dissolved in wikivoice. Mellk (talk) 01:57, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

@MarcusTraianus: I see that you have modified my edits to re-add the claim that it was de jure dissolved on January 1 with an edit summary stating that this is because other Artsakh politicians apparently disagreed with the president's annulling of the decree, but no such text is in the article, making the article read in a way that's kind of unclear. Are you able to cite a source to verify the assertion that the government was de jure dissolved in spite of the president reversing his prior decree? If not, could you self-revert? The sources we have indicate that no such dissolution happened on 1 January 2024.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 03:34, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

It is dissolved. All main post–Soviet media reported on that [1], [2], [3]. RIA stated that president's annul try '[c]aused a negative reaction from the Armenian authorities, who believe that the functioning of Karabakh State institutions in the republic will threaten the security of Armenia'. It means that move to annul wasn't supported by any UN-recognized states, and it makes dissolution irreversible, especially with army dissolved and population fled. MarcusTraianus (talk) 09:53, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Well, I don't think UN state support is that relevant here, but either way the de jure dissolution debate is a red herring. Like most states that have ended throughout history, the cause of dissolution wasn't any particular law. If reliable sources for some reason talk about de jure dissolution with any particular focus than we can see what their interpretation is, but absent that it's a minor footnote to the actual end of the functioning state. 10:17, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree that it's just a small detail, my goal here is just to make sure we get all the details right. My understanding from my reading of the sources is that the cause of dissolution was undoubtedly the takeover by Azerbaijan, not government institutions choosing to stand by the president's original decree while declining to recognize the president's later annulling of that decree. So I do think it was annulled, it just never really mattered what the president said. I think we can remove the statement that it was dissolved on January 1st because, aside from this statement being questionable and dubious, it's not really material to the story of how Artsakh ceased to exist. I appreciate that MarcusTraianus linked to some sources, but as a user said above (looks like their signature got malformed so I don't know who said it), UN-recognized states aren't really relevant here. No UN-recognized state ever officially recognized Artsakh to begin with, not even Armenia.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 21:04, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Universities Merge discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was to merge. Merge performed by Vanjagenije. Note: closed by nominator. Cheers, Dan the Animator 22:48, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

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Article has been more or less a stub for over a decade and likely has no chance of further expansion. Content is poorly sourced and article fails WP:GNG as-is. Content is better kept in its parent article (the main Artsakh page), where it would improve the comprehensiveness of the article. Would like to gain a consensus on this though since this isn't as straightforward as my other mergers to this article. Cheers, Dan the Animator 22:51, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Forgot to mention above but as an alternative merge destination, there's also a List of universities in Azerbaijan article that has a update orange tag currently. Dan the Animator 23:07, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Hi.

A) You forgot to add the link: List of universities in Artsakh.

B) Merger with Artsakh - yes, I can agree with that, maybe as a subsection of "Culture".

C) Merger with Azeri universities - rather not, and definitely not yet. It's not a matter of Wikipedia reorganising its material, but of Azerbaijan deciding what to do with anything connected to Artsakh. There's hardly any ethnically Armenian population left, the Az. authorities might close down a lot, and they'll most certainly rename everything and repurpose many. Keep it as part of an "Artsakh defunct project" article. RIP. What will be later is another story. Arminden (talk) 23:30, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

 Done. Merged. Vanjagenije (talk) 16:25, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Law enforcement Merge discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was to merge. Note: closed by nominator. Cheers, Dan the Animator 23:12, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

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Article has been more or less a stub for over a decade and likely has no chance of further expansion. Content is mostly copied from other page (which are linked in the article itself) and there is not apparent need to have a separate page for this. Content would be much better kept in its parent article (the main Artsakh page) where it would really improve the comprehensiveness and also quality of the article. Would like to gain a consensus on this though since this isn't as straightforward as my other mergers to this article. Cheers, Dan the Animator 22:51, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Hi. Similar to topic above:

A) You forgot to add the link: Law enforcement in the Republic of Artsakh.

B) Merger with Artsakh - yes, that makes sense. Arminden (talk) 23:33, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Support Lucjim (talk) 22:46, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Infobox "Dissolution" under Independence from Soviet Union

Underneath "Capitulation" dated to 28 September 2023, I think there should be a "Dissolution" dated to 1 January 2024 675930s (talk) 08:10, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Per above, the 1 January 2024 date should not be given too much prominence. CMD (talk) 01:19, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 February 2024

Republic of Artsakh has been de-coloured from blue for showing a linking page to black for plain text, on this page and multiple others that contain 'Republic of Artsakh' e.g. Armenia-Artsakh Relations, Artsakh Defence Force. 2A02:C7C:9B2C:9F00:2D45:FC4A:A1FB:AFD2 (talk) 11:43, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Shadow311 (talk) 14:00, 9 February 2024 (UTC)