Talk:Shaigiya tribe

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Shaigya tribe or ethnic group?

Hello Munfarid, I noticed that you edited the Shaiqiya page and replaced every single "tribe" with "ethnic group". I know that "tribe" isn't well liked among many africanists, but I am fairly certain that the Shaiqiya are not to be defined as an ethnic group like "Arab" or "Nubian", but indeed as a tribe in the Arabic sense, the qabaliyya. By that definition, they are a branch of the larger Ja'alin tribe, the largest of the sedentary Sudanese "Arab" tribes. Let me know what you think. LeGabrie (talk) 13:10, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Hello LeGabrie, thanks for your comment, which I appreciate. While you are certainly right about the relation of Shaiqiya to Ja'alin and the sendentary Sudanese "Arabs", I share a reservation voiced by some anthropologists towards the term "tribe" in contemporary Africa. My reservation also relates to notions such as "tribal customs, warfare" etc. as mentioned for example in the article on tribe. Second, and as far as I can see, all WP articles referring to Sudanese tribes bear the specification (ethnic group) in their title, and this is another reason why I have changed the word "tribe" in this article to "ethnic group".

I am aware of the fact that both "tribe" and "ethnic group" are not always defined in a clear-cut way in social anthropology. Also, I know about the Sudanese usually referring to their ethnic or tribal background as qabaliyya, but this way of thinking is also being refused by modern Sudanese, who see themselves more as citizens of a modern society, and would like to leave tribal stereotypes behind. The question you ask, is of course, which of the two terms is correct and in line with other WP articles, and I must confess that other than the reasons mentioned above, I am not sure, if there is a clear-cut answer. Let me know what you think, Munfarid1 (talk) 17:36, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Back when I used to study African studies I also had some reservations about using the term "tribe", especially in an African context. In any case, I feel that it is appropriate to label the Shaiqiya, Ja'alin, Danagla, Rufa'a and so on as such, simply because their identity is so heavily based on their supposed Arab genealogies (even if slowly abandoned by modern Sudanese). LeGabrie (talk) 18:41, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Hi, I don't feel strongly about using "tribe" in an article like this, even though I wonder why all titles of articles about Sudanese ethnic groups have been labelled as such. If you want, you can go ahead and replace this term. Prompted by our discussion, however, I found this page, which discourages the use of "tribe" in favour of "ethnic group". Apart from the infobox for tribes, there is also a template for an infobox on ethnic groups. Maybe you want to make it even clearer in the article, how the Shaigiya, Ja'alin are referring to themselves in Arabic as "tribes" and not as larger ethnic groups?

Hi LeGabrie, as you can see in the article, I have just copied our earlier correspondence from my talk page here and replaced the words "ethnic group" with the original "tribe". I hope this is correct and will be shared by other editors who may have similar questions about these concepts. Munfarid1 (talk) 15:59, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Arabised Nubian, not Arab

To the many, many IPs which have tried to change this over the years, including the most recent ones: No, just because a source puts "Arab" next to the name of an ethnic group does not automatically prove that this ethnic group is only Arab. Researchers who actually studied this topic in depth, already referenced in the article, explain this quite well: These groups were Arabised, and they consider themselves Arab (resulting in some sources calling them "Arab"), but they are ethnically not Arabs. Applodion (talk) 12:55, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

If you search for books mentioning the Shaigiya and the term "Nubian" you get lots and lots more sources which affirm that they are an Arabised Nubian people. Just like, say, modern Syrians, the Shaigiya have absorbed some ethnic Arabs and adopted an Arab identity, but they are ethnically distinct. Applodion (talk) 13:03, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

well l am from the tribe and we look like arabs not nubians and we did not ever talk any language exepet arabic also we dont have any thing common with nubians 197.252.219.156 (talk) 12:02, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Just because now you don't talk a certain language and look a certain way does not mean your ancestors didn't. I certainly don't speak Old Germanic and Slavic dialects, but my ancestors did. Applodion (talk) 14:52, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

We dont even look like nubians and every sudanese know that we are arabs we dont have an afro hair we or an afrixan nose or an african face for some of our tribe married nubians but the dont mean we are not arab 41.95.112.243 (talk) 09:21, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Even nubians tribes know that we are arabs 41.95.112.243 (talk) 09:23, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Well, as Nubians, we use the term "Arabrii", from the root "Arab", to anyone who is not native to Nubia. We call you "Arabs" , not because you are actually "Arab", we call you "Arabs" because your ancestors were refugees. Kryako (talk) 10:03, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

That guy is clowning you. The Shaiqiya look exactly like every other riverine Nubian, or Sudanese "Arab" for that matter. Men from Nuri. Girls from Karima. LeGabrie (talk) 13:32, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

عرقية الشايقية

الشوايقة قبيلة عربية في الاساس اختلطت مع القبائل النوبية و٧٧ناك بعض المصادر تقول ان قبيلة الشايقية و الجعليين هم من نفس العائلة 41.95.15.78 (talk) 09:41, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

The photo used

@LeGabrie the photo you have used is not a Shaigiya couple this is a Nubian couple in el Kurru and it is incorrect and misleading to claim they are a Shaigi couple. The original photo file says couple in El Kurru in the Sudanese part of Nubia, this doesn't specifically say a Shaigi couple. The caption of the file extracted that you have used has also been extracted from 3 other files in which they say that this is a Nubian couple in El Kurru.

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nubisches_Paar_im_Sudan.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nubisches_Paar_im_Sudan.jpg#mw-jump-to-license https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nubialaiset https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nubiani Cookiemonster1618 (talk) 17:25, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

@Cookiemonster1618: Look, it's really simple: El-Kurru is not located in Nubia, but in Dar al-Shaiqiya, more precisely near the 4th cataract. The uploader erroneously called it a part of "sudanese Nubia". He probably refers to historic Nubia, but as of today, Nubian isn't spoken there anymore, only Arabic. Nor does the population identify as Nubian anymore. Therefore, the couple aren't Nubian, unless they are Nubian migrants from the north. LeGabrie (talk) 17:58, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

The couple arent Shaigi either because the caption doesn't say that. They could actually be Nubian because based on evidence of the photo the way the lady thobe is dressed looks similar to the Mahasi Nubian tribe. Just because El Kurru is located in Dar Al Shaigiya does not mean the couple pictured in it are Shaigi. That's not a great argument for claiming they are Shaigi because they live in El Kurru. Cookiemonster1618 (talk) 18:37, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

The couple arent Shaigi either because the caption doesn't say that.' The caption also calls el-Kuru a part of "sudanese Nubia", which it isn't. So again: the caption is unreliable.

That's not a great argument for claiming they are Shaigi because they live in El Kurru. Yes it is, because el-Kurru is literally the heartland of Dar Shaiqiya. LeGabrie (talk) 00:08, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

I've been in el-Kurru & I'm not Shaigi. We can't extrapolate ethnicity from location at the time a photograph is taken: At best we can essay a probabilistic hypothesis. I agree that without clear indication that this couple is Shaigi they shouldn't be used as an illustration of the tribe. Pathawi (talk) 00:49, 4 March 2024 (UTC)