Talk:Transgender flag

Source about flag creator

"Originally from Arizona, Monica Helms moved to Atlanta in 2000. She helped form the Tri-Ess chapter Alpha Zeta 1983 and It's Time, Arizona in 1999. She has served as the Co-Chair of BiNet AZ, on the Board of NTAC, the Secretary of Georgia Stonewall Democrats, on the Board of LaGender, Inc. and the Southern Association for Gender Education. Currently, she is on the GLBT Community Advisory Committee for Rep. John Lewis, Advisory Board for NCTE, the Executive Director of Trans-Action, the Co-Coordinator for the Transgender Day of Remembrance since 2000 and Founder and President of the Transgender American Veterans Association (TAVA.) In March, 2003, Monica received the Trinity Award and was elected as the first transgender delegate from Georgia to the Democratic National Convention, July 2004. She is a published author, a regular columnist for Transgender Tapestry, and the creator of the Transgender Pride Flag."— Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])

http://www.transeventsusa.org/ifge/tg06_bioList.shtml - The IFGE Conference, Transgender 2006: Presenters & Organizers.

Google result issue

Hi, I just noticed that when this page comes up in a Google search (e.g. searching for 'trans flag') the result seems to pick a flag from the page at random. I'm not sure how to fix this, but I think having the top result display the most common flag would be best. 95.146.60.241 (talk) 21:20, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

I don't know for sure, but I wonder whether moving the standard flag above the templates might help Google to recognise it as the main/lede image? DanielRigal (talk) 21:45, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

I think this probably a google issue rather than a wikipedia issue. I'm not an expert but I believe there are many factors determining what google serves up. Wikipedia might be anonymous but GOOGLE KNOWS WHO YOU ARE !

Those who want full information can read the article. Those who just want an overview can just read the introduction. So what google shows first is irrelevant. 2001:569:BE99:EA00:ADA4:2B14:C66D:6FE4 (talk) 03:04, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

I am opposed to doing anything on this page for the purpose of influencing how Google (or any other indexer or external website) organizes their affairs. There is no Wikipedia policy or guideline that would remotely call for doing such a thing. Any change to this article should be only to improve *our* article and based strictly on *our* P&G. Mathglot (talk) 05:09, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Actually, I think I figured out why this happened. A user decided to delete the infobox in November last year here and most search engines use the infobox image for deciding which one to show.

The infobox has since been restored and it looks like the main flag that people consider the Transgender flag now shows up with the result. Raladic (talk) 20:30, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

"Most prominent" flag

Firstly, the link (7) doesn't work. The statement should be qualified as being 10 years old. I found an article under that title but there is no content: https://mashable.com/archive/lgbt-pride-symbols. So, at the moment, this is an unsupported claim.

Does anyone have a reliable source? Humpster (talk) 05:06, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Opening any search engine and searching for Transgender flag will show that the helms design has become synonymous with the term trans flag, such as this article from last year, or this one by the Smithsonian from 2022 or this resource page by the human rights campaign. Raladic (talk) 06:48, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Moved from User talk:MikutoH

 – --MikutoH ^talk! 00:20, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for contributing to transgender flag, MikutoH (talk · contribs). I removed the info box for the Helms flag six months ago because it didn't convey any information which wasn't in the text. I didn't revert your May 7 good-faith edit because I believe reversion is overused as a blunt instrument. (To me, reversion is an overreactive act verging on aggression.) It would be better if edits could be flagged as "under discussion"and force both sides to state their position.

As you observed, the status of the Helms flag is now in dispute. Simply put, my opinion is that Wikipedia should not prefer any single transgender flag design. I have been editing the article in this vein for a long time, almost in isolation. Now, there has been an objection.

I am writing a summary of the different opinions and hope to post it in a few days. So please hold any edits until the end of the week.

Humphrey Tribble Humpster (talk) 23:18, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

@Humphrey Tribble I perceive that that could apply to the disability flag, in which the userbox uses a flag that has institutional recognitions but the other flag is widely used as well, sometimes even more than the one that the article considers the main flag. However, I also think this is a false equivalence, because the Helms' flag is strongerly considered the trans flag nowadays, it has even an emoji recognized in most places online. --MikutoH ^talk! 23:25, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

That's a good example for comparison. Thank you. Humpster (talk) 23:32, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

There is no dispute over the helms design being synonymous with the transgender flag.

It even was adopted as the design into the standard emoji repository of every major device. Several years ago.

Anyone trying to say anything contrary to that is trying to push a WP:FRINGE viewpoint. I’ve searched online, but unequivocally all WP:RS cite the Helms design as the de-facto design for the transgender flag and only cursory list they some alternative designs exist, such as this article here, but that’s it.

I have expanded the article to that effect now and added those sources. Raladic (talk) 00:04, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Status of Helms flag

The purpose of this topic is to reach consensus on the subject of the article. Is it about transgender flags in general, or is the subject the Transgender Pride Flag of Monica Helms.

I have been working on transgender flag for nearly 2 years, making incremental improvements, with full edit summaries, and have posted on the talk page whenever discussion was needed. I don't recall any issues arising. Mostly, I rewrote and reorganized using existing citations.

My first edit, on 2022 June 13, was to change "representing" to "intended to represent"; my edit summary said "An unofficial flag cannot represent every person or organization. This flag was designed with the intention to represent them." My last substantial edit was to add a 2019 quotation and a source with respect to confusion arising from the multiplicity of flags.

On May 5, a new editor to the article, Raladic (talk · contribs), protested the approach and in a flurry of edits changed the sense of the article. The origin of this dispute can be viewed under the topic preceding this, "Most prominent flag" and, importantly, the edit summaries of 2024 May 5 - 14. There isn't a lot to read. Raladic's aggressive editing and refusal of discussion amounted to edit warring so I disengaged.

I can supply more information and refute some supposed errors of fact on request. However, the quickest way to assess the direction you'd like the article to take is to compare the introduction and structure of three versions.

The current version of the article now represents the viewpoint of Raladic. ("There is only one transgender flag.")

The former version, as of my last edit, can be compared at https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Transgender_flag&oldid=1222474426 ("There are several flags. None has been approved by international bodies.")

The nature of the article eight years ago, long before I began editing, can be seen at https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Transgender_flag&oldid=747674084 ("...the various transgender individuals, organizations and communities around the world have not coalesced around one single flag design.")

So, is the Transgender Pride Flag of Monica Helms the ONE transgender flag, all others being subsidiary to it? The alternative viewpoint is that while the Helms flag is probably best known, there are actually several transgender flags of value to their communities.

My argument for inclusivity rests on the lack of worldwide status of any flag. Flags are usually defined in some kind of constitution whether that be a club, a city, a country, or the United Nations.

Most of the references are from US sources and seem to focus on Monica Helms as much as her flag. I would like the article to be globalized. Global means not US, not Western countries, and gender diversity too.

For example, as Raladic pointed out, a Google search turns up the Helms flag almost exclusively. But Google search results aren't reliable. Like Wikipedia, Google has systemic biases. A French search engine on a French information base retrieved three transgender flags: the Helms flag and a variation, but also the Pellinen flag.

I have posted an open invitation to this discussion at WikiProject LGBT studies I am explicitly alerting a few users: Raladic (talk · contribs) of course adarkhairedone (talk · contribs) who has been a past major contributor Dlloyd (talk · contribs) who started the article and also contributed more than 10% Raystorm (talk · contribs) and Ashlux (talk · contribs) because they are listed as peer reviewers in WikiProject LGBT studies I considered pinging several other editors who are listed in the Top 10 by percentage, character count, or number of edits, plus those users who have made edits in 2024. However, 30-odd more voices would make a crowded conversation, and I trust that they are watching the article if they are interested.

Humphrey Tribble Humpster (talk) 22:27, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

The premise of your argument that there are multiple, equally used Transgender flags, was based on a single unreliable source - a self published website, which did not satisfy WP:RS and is counter to the multitude of reliable sources that all consider the Helms design to be "the" Transgender flag design, with some other designs existing as localized alternatives/variations, but not having much adoption. I have not removed that alternate desigs exist, just made it clear based on the reliable sources we have that some alternatives exist by local communities, but that doesn't negate the point that one design is the common one adopted by the community.

As I already pointed out in my reply above several days ago to which you didn't respond, I have searched extensively and did not find WP:RS that backed the earlier version of the article under this premise and have thus removed this WP:FRINGE view and brought this article in line with other Pride Flags - most all of which have had multiple designs and yet they still have "one" that is considered "the" design for each - Pride flag#Notable examples.

You need to produce reliable sources that counter the extensive existing reliable sources that do consider the Helms Design to be "the" Transgender flag, which is an exceptional claim and requires WP:EXCEPTIONAL sources.

Also, since you brought up that searching in French yields something different - you will find that the actual french editors of French Wikipedia fr:Drapeaux_transgenres, do in fact also consider the Helms design the Transgender flag symbol: (translated):Several flags were created independently in the 1990s and early 2000s. The best known is that of transgender pride drawn by Monica Helms in 1999, which has become the symbol of transidentity. A number of communities have created their own variations and flags.

Wikipedia reports what reliable sources have found and stays neutral on the topic, it inherently takes the WP:MAINSTREAM viewpoint and does not lead with original research.

Also please refrain from personal attacks as you just did above. I would appreciate you striking your WP:ASPERSIONS in the paragraph on On May 5.... Raladic (talk) 00:03, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Regardless I do find the wording of the Alternate Flag section a bit clunky. Maybe taking out the "synonymous" phrase would help? I think it's self-explanatory if the main article is the Helm flag and the others are in the Alternate section 2600:8800:7180:8D:D34E:24A8:75F3:E2B2 (talk) 16:53, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Origin of popularity is Wikipedia

This is my personal anecdote.

The creator of the flag posted it on their website in 2008. The wiki article was made in 2006, so it was known before then.

I nominated the wiki article for deletion in 2011. That deletion discussion identified all the references to the flag which we could find on the Internet at the time. As the references show, the flag really did not exist in published media at the time. It was unknown.

Wikipedia's article for transgender gets a lot of pageviews. It is one of the most popular articles in Wikipedia, and probably the single most consulted source of information on the concept of "transgender" in the world. After this article got established showing that flag, the flag eventually became the illustration for that article and a minor illustration on many transgender articles. From there 100s of millions of people saw it over the years as the official trans symbol since Wikipedia said it was. It is a case of circular reporting. There were other trans symbols, but Wikipedia adopted this one. I think it came to Wikipedia from Tumblr, which was more popular at the time and which was a very LGBT+ community and platform.

About the conversation for which symbol is the official trans symbol - it is this 1999 flag, because Wikipedia is the global authority which decides such things, and we decided on this flag in 2011. If Wikipedia views are a proxy of uptake then this one is 100,000 times more popular than all the others put together. It felt really odd at the time keeping it but I think things turned out well. The flag is highly recognizable and most people love it. It is a great symbol. Bluerasberry (talk) 00:30, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

This should probably be added to the list of citogenesis incidents. Flounder fillet (talk) 01:33, 27 May 2024 (UTC)