Talk:Xenophon of Robeika

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Did you know nomination[edit]

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... that when his vita was lost, the life story of Xenophon of Robeika had to be rewritten?

Source: Ankudinov, I. Yu. (2016). Ксенофонтов Робейский Николаевский монастырь [Xenophon Robeysky Nikolaevsky Monastery]. Novgorod Archive Bulletin. Vol. 13. Veliky Novgorod. pp. 83–84.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link)

Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Shah Suwar

5x expanded by Evrik (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 116 past nominations.

--evrik ^(talk) 20:07, 10 May 2024 (UTC).[reply]

Wow, I love this hook. Article is long enough and 5x expanded as of today, Earwig finds no copyvio, sourcing looks good and I'm AGFing on the languages I can't read (DeepL translation shows me it lines up). Hook is cited, again AGF because I can't be certain, given that I can't read Russian, and your QPQ is good. Zanahary (talk) 21:47, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@AirshipJungleman29: This saint's day is June 28. Would you mind dropping this in the SOHA for that day? --evrik ^(talk) 18:54, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Evrik and Zanahary: please could you double check the source for the hook? I found it online via Academia.edu here. My reading is that Ankudinov thinks that there was only oral tradition before the 18th-century vita. After discussing two 17th century documents, the sentence on pages 86 and 87 says "Возможно, это свидетельствует о том, что к этому времени текст Жития Ксенофонта еще не сложился, и среди населения бытовали лишь устные предания о преподобном. [Perhaps this indicates that by this time the text of the Life of Xenophon had not yet been formed, and only oral traditions about the saint existed among the population. via Google translate]". TSventon (talk) 16:02, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@TSventon: how about:

Alt1 ... that the life story of Xenophon of Robeika was written centuries after his death?

--evrik ^(talk) 16:07, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That is accurate, I am not sure it is surprising. I think the article needs some work, hopefully Чръный человек can help. TSventon (talk) 16:19, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dates[edit]

evrik, the ru Wikipedia article says X lived in the 14th-15th centuries per Bobrov or 12th-13th centuries per the later life, while the en Wikipedia article says he lived in the 12th-13th centuries or 200 year earlier per his 18th century biographers, which is correct? TSventon (talk) 00:14, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@TSventon: This source says he died on June 28, 1262. That would indicate he lived in the 12th-13th centuries. I saw the discrepancy in the ru site. Don't know what to make of it. --evrik ^(talk) 02:24, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

evrik, I think that the ru Wikipedia dates are correct, the Wikisource Russian Biographical Dictionary entry here says he died on June 26, 1262 and I looked at a few pages of Bobrov's paper (reference 3) at Academia.edu using Google translate and he seemed to be talking about the 15th century. The Orthodox Church in America source suggests that they used an older source rather than Bobrov. I think you should ask a Russian speaker to check, possibly the author of the ru Wikipedia article. You could offer them a joint DYK credit. TSventon (talk) 08:57, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW, are we concerned about the month and day he died, or the century? These three sources say 1262 is the year of his death:

wikisource:ru:РБС/ВТ/Ксенофонт (преподобный Робейский)

https://www.oca.org/saints/lives/2014/01/26/100319-saint-xenophon-of-robeika

https://web-archive-org.translate.goog/web/20140430035042/http://www.sedmitza.ru/lib/text/437399/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en

--evrik ^(talk) 15:31, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Russian Biographical Dictionary" is outdated source. The information placed there reflects the views as of the end of the XIX century. ~ Чръный человек (talk) 16:18, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also, were you able to check the source for the hook Ankudinov, I. Yu. (2016)? TSventon (talk) 14:11, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

www.academia.edu/26688826/%D0%90%D0%BD%D0%BA%D1%83%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2_%D0%98_%D0%AE_%D0%9A%D1%81%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%84%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B2_%D0%A0%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%B5%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%9D%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B5%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D1%8B%D1%80%D1%8C_%D0%9D%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B4%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%85%D0%B8%D0%B2%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BA_%D0%92%D1%8B%D0%BF_13_%D0%92%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%9D%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B4_2016_%D1%81_83_141

Yes, but not recently. --evrik ^(talk) 15:31, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Чръный человек: Do you have any comments? --evrik ^(talk) 15:39, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Evrik, I understand that the recent scholarship used as sources for the article, i.e. Ankudinov and Bobrov. prefers a 14th and 15th century date for X, rather than a 12th and 13th century date and the article does not maker that clear. I am not disputing the exact traditional dates. I have now queried the hook on the nomination page. TSventon (talk) 16:04, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

- The reasons for such discrepancies are described in the Orthodox Encyclopedia: "Judging by the linguistic features, the extant version of the Life was compiled quite late: not earlier than the XVIII century, therefore its information is not reliable". Correct dates of his life is XIV - XV centuries. The exact date is unknown since his authentic life has not been preserved. (See [1]) ~ Чръный человек (talk) 16:13, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  - @Чръный человек: I am behind a firewall that limits my access to russian domains. Could you make the needed fixes to the English article? I'd be glad to share DYK credit. Thank you. --evrik ^(talk) 16:58, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]