Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Persona (series)/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 00:37, 28 March 2016 [1].

Persona (series)[edit]

Nominator(s): ProtoDrake (talk) 21:03, 10 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The Persona series, formally marketed overseas as Shin Megami Tensei: Persona is a role-playing video game series developed by Atlus as a branch of the Megami Tensei franchise. Beginning in 1996 with the first Persona title, the series consists of six main entries, multiple spin-offs, and various media expansions including manga, anime, novels and stageplays. While a spin-off from Megami Tensei, there are very few direct plot-related connections to it, so understanding both series is not a prerequisite. All online references in this article are archived, and while the usage of images may come up at some point in this review, I deemed it necessary to use them as I did to help break up the article and demonstrate points made in the text. Plus, due to the series pre-dating the mid-2000s, GameRankings is used in the aggregate tables as per consensus on the WikiProject talk page. This title became a GA in August 2015, and was given a peer review that same month upon which I performed some copyediting. --ProtoDrake (talk) 21:03, 10 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • The GameRankings scores do not add any value over Metacritic's in this case. The two are very similar in score, such that GR duplicates the function of Metacritic. The only exception could be the GR score for Innocent Sin on PlayStation, which has no Metacritic—however, I would strike that score anyway because it is an average of two scores, which isn't a suitable minimum for inclusion as a metascore (we usually set four reviews as a suitable minimum). czar 07:40, 25 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Not to be nitpicky, but I think the images requiere an alt.Tintor2 (talk) 14:54, 24 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Tony1[edit]

Just parachuting in to look at the lead. Some points:

  1. "Since then, there have been eight further"—what's a simpler grammar? "There have since been ..."?
  2. "with another one"—one word could be removed.
  3. Just checking: the "aspects" are summoned during battles, right?
  4. Subsetting disease? Maybe not, since only you know whether you're citing the whole list or a subset of it: "The series' trademark features include ...". If the whole, use "comprises".
  5. utlizing ... why not using?
  6. "has also used a social simulation function called Social Links, which are directly linked to the gameplay"—Clash between singular and plural; perhaps "is" rather than "are", unless there's a good reason to stresses the individual links (but difficult with the capped title). Alternative, remove "which are" altogther. Bin "also", unless that function needs to be stressed as an addition, add-on.
  7. You "do" a design? Simplify the grammar ... central characters were designed by.
  8. The + noun + of. the exploration of.
  9. Sick of "series"—"The series' recurring concepts ...".
  10. "Beginning with Persona 2: Eternal Punishment, the localizations have been notably faithful to the Japanese versions at the insistence of Atlus."—I don't like "notably faithful". Is notably part of the mood (Notably, beginning with ...)? What does notably mean, otherwise.
  11. Helping to
  12. "Numerous adaptations have been made, including anime television and theatrical series, novelizations, manga and stage plays."—There have been numerous adaptations, ... Check the subsetting of this list.

So some fine checking of the whole article would be good. Might be ok as a candidate, then. Tony (talk) 05:40, 2 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Tony1, I've done some work based on your suggestions. It's very useful. A full prose review would be nice, if you can manage that. --ProtoDrake (talk) 10:24, 2 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for addressing. I don't think I can allocate more time to going through in fine detail. Can you recruit fresh copyediting eyes for the rest? Tony (talk) 11:01, 2 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sure I can. Maybe CR4ZE or JimmyBlackwing could oblige. --ProtoDrake (talk) 13:08, 2 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Just saw this message. Really sorry, but I'm just too busy with off-Wiki work to edit these days. Even making time to fulfill scan requests has been a challenge lately. Hopefully you can find another copyeditor without too much trouble. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 02:20, 3 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from JDC808[edit]

Just a note, I always do copy/editing when I review articles.

Main series

  • Perhaps adding a timeline?
  • I've added it. It actually fits in quite well. --ProtoDrake (talk) 08:21, 9 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • You could probably add the spin-offs in it too. --JDC808 ♫ 15:54, 9 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Spin-offs

  • "A spin-off for the Nintendo 3DS, Persona Q: Shadow of the Labyrinth, was released worldwide in 2014;[1] though it features the full casts of Persona 3 and 4, it is classed by Atlus as an official entry in the Persona canon."
  • I copy/edited this but wanted to clarify the reasoning. I removed "though" and put "and" before "it is classified". "though" made it sound as if 3 and 4 aren't officially canon, which I'm assuming they are. --JDC808 ♫ 00:10, 9 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Support - Just finished the last section of the article and besides the copy/editing that I've done, which was minor, I don't see anything that concerns me and makes me feel that this shouldn't be an FA. --JDC808 ♫ 15:54, 9 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Masem[edit]

  • Having played P3 + P4, but not the other games, the gameplay section looks really haphazard to me, but it's hard to tell how much it can be normalized. I would definitely suggest trying to group everything about Persona into one section as a starting point, here describing how they have abilities, strength/weaknesses, the ability to grow and fuse, and connection to Social Links, and then briefly mentioning then in combat how the player summons these into battle to use these abilities. And since I can't readily speak to P1 or P2, I don't know if the mix of social interactions and then dungeon exploring of P3/P4 is a consistent feature.
  • I noticed there's a good number of game names without italics, this should be fixed. There's also some internal linking to Wikipedia as references, that shouldn't be done. You also have embedded external links in prose which you should be careful with.
  • Image check
    Series logo is just text, so non-copyrightable.
    File:P4BattleScreen.jpg is reasonable but is that really the best quality even at reduced size?
    File:Persona5visual.jpg has no rationale to be used in this article. That said, I think this can be supported to be used in here, in discussing the contributions of Soejima to the series, but that rationale has to be there. For the caption, you may want to indicate that this is the main protagonist (I assume) for P5, and his Persona behind him, as that further aids in understanding how these Personas look alongside the human characters.
    File:Masaomark.jpg again has no rationale to be used on this article. Further, I would argue that this one may not be as necessary here as the above P5 poster. You don't specifically refer to the appearance change in the text (though allude to all changes made between localization releases in general), and this is probably best only on the Revelations article. So I would recommend removing this.
    File:Persona 3 The Movie 1 The Spring of Birth Promotional Poster.png, again no rationale here, and I also struggle to find why this is needed here (it's appropriate on the movie page).
  • As these suggestions remove images, some ideas for free images that can still enhance the article include: Something from the Commons category Commons:Category:Tarot cards, since that plays into P3 and P4, and potentially from Commons:Category:Cosplay of Shin Megami Tensei: Persona. A quick check unfortunately doesn't give us any free images of the key people on the series but you might want to look for that. Also, I feel you can support a second non-free gameplay image here, possibly showing something related to Social Links, such as when the player's given an conversation tree option to a potential Social Link. This can help demonstrate that factor, the visual novel-aspects of the game, and how the game's presented outside of combat.
  • Overall I can't support this presently as FA, it does need some work to get there but it's not too far off. --MASEM (t) 18:33, 23 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • Hold on, just noticed the version I checked had a class project edit, which really needs to be checked, I will double check the version prior... --MASEM (t) 18:36, 23 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
      • Okay, that version introduced all the non-italic game names and inter-wiki links, so ignore that comment above, but the issues with the jumbled gameplay section and images still are there. --MASEM (t) 18:38, 23 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Masem: I'll do my best with the gameplay section, but it'll take a little time. As to the images, I removed the fourth and fifth images, did my best with the image rationale for the third image, and replaced the second image with two images demonstrating combat and Social Links. --ProtoDrake (talk) 20:30, 23 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • The updated images (and the removal of those noted) all look fine now. As I noted, you might be able to use some free imagery to help break up the article more but that's not required. I'd love to help on the gameplay but I don't have enough familiarity on the P1/P2 games to know how to best normalize it. --MASEM (t) 01:12, 24 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Masem, I did my best with the gameplay. I expanded the blurb about Personas into its own subsection. I've done my best to place features unique to each entry in their own section while keeping the most common aspects separate. I've also done my best to expand the concepts behind Personas without blowing up the section too much. The Social Links/Negotiation can't really be separated without making the section(s) rather small, and since they're related in a way, I thought it best to keep them together. --ProtoDrake (talk) 19:46, 24 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This looks much better / easier-to-follow, particularly noting differences between the games. I have not been following P5's news outside that I know it's coming soon, do we have a good enough idea that it will follow the P3/P4 model, or are we still sorta waiting on that? Regardless, I support this now as a FA, my main issues have been resolved. --MASEM (t) 19:52, 24 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
P5's gameplay is still a mystery. On purpose, I think. --ProtoDrake (talk) 19:56, 24 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from IDV[edit]

  • The series is a spin-off from Atlus' Megami Tensei franchise. - this sentence is quite short and feels sort of choppy. Maybe it can be merged with Persona began as a spin-off based on the high school setting of Shin Megami Tensei if...., perhaps something like Persona is as a spin-off from Atlus' Megami Tensei franchise, and was originally based on the high school setting of Shin Megami Tensei if....?
  • There have since been eight further console titles (four main entries and four console spin-off titles) - we've already established that the eight games being discussed are for consoles, so it's not necessary to say that the spin-offs are on consoles.
  • The game was later ported to the PlayStation Portable (PSP): it released in 2009 in Japan and North America, and 2010 in Europe as a digital release. Might want to clarify that it was available both physically and digitally in Japan and North America - this could be read as being a digital-only release in all regions.
  • Might want to add the P2 games' original platform.
  • Released in Japan in 2012, it was not released in the west. The West is written with a capital W. This is something that needs to be fixed at multiple points in the article. Also, I don't know, something about this sentence is sort of weird. I'd change it to something like "It was released in Japan in 2012, but was not released in the West".
  • A director's cut featuring new content and an epilogue, Persona 3 FES, - almost makes it look like P3FES were the epilogue. Maybe something like Persona 3 FES, a director's cut featuring new content and an epilogue, would work?
  • The success of Persona 3 Portable inspired the team - maybe I'm being nitpicky here, but we haven't mentioned any team yet. Perhaps "the development team" or "the developers"?
  • Originally scheduled for release in late 2015, it is currently scheduled for a 2016 release - Unsure if the delay is important enough to be mentioned in the series article.
  • a new free-to-play browser game titled Persona Ain Soph,[Jp. 2] was released that year; - the comma isn't needed. Link free-to-play.
  • A fighting game sequel to Persona 4, Persona 4 Arena, was released in arcades in Japan in 2012. - might want to link arcades to arcade game or amusement arcade.
  • Their first partnership was in 2006 with the development and release of Megami Ibunroku Persona: Chapter of the Foreign Tower of Emptiness,[Jp. 3] a 3D dungeon crawler set within the environments of Persona. Since the series is also called Persona, it might be good to specify that this is specifically about the first game.
  • The gameplay of the Persona series revolves around combat against various enemy types (Demons, Shadows, Personas) - I'd prefer something like various enemy types: Demons, Shadows, and Personas.
  • Link random encounter.
  • Please explain "running into sprites" further. I've played these games, but for someone who hasn't played them or who doesn't know much about RPGs, it might be difficult to understand. Also, P3 and onward uses models for characters, not sprites.
  • Persona 5 introduces elements such as platforming and stealth gameplay to dungeon exploration. - Link platform game and stealth game.
  • manifestations of a person's inner psyche. - I'm not a psychologist or anything, but is there such a thing as an outer psyche? Would just psyche work?
  • Personas are used for types of physical attack and most magical attacks, - this sounds kind of confusing. How about Personas can be used for both physical and magical attacks,
  • Link status ailments to status effect
  • For all Persona games, all characters start out with an initial Persona, - All playable characters. Most NPCs don't have Personas.
  • Two (later up to twelve) Personas - I think I know what you're referring to (more complex fusions being unlocked by Igor later in the game), but this is not all that clear. I could read it as "in the first games, you could fuse two Personas, but by P4 you could fuse twelve", which probably (?) isn't what you meant. I suggest changing it to Multiple Personas.
  • which acts as an independent level system tied to a Persona family or Arcanum. - Not really clear what this means.
  • such as their academic abilities, social aptitude. - and their social aptitude.
  • , set in the year 1996 CE - Is this necessary? There's not really any room for confusion with 1996 BC.
  • Link collective unconscious
  • For refs 69, 88: should we really be linking to these scans?
  • Halfway through the scriptwriting for Innocent Sin, it was decided that the world needed a new perspective to that of the current protagonist. Maybe my English just isn't up to snuff, but I don't understand this sentence.
  • Persona 3 had a dark atmosphere and serious characters - Persona 3 has a dark atmosphere [...]. Same for the P4 example.
  • the localizations for the Persona series are generally handled by Yu Namba and Nich Maragos of Atlus USA, - Maragos works at Nintendo of America now, not Atlus USA (source for him moving to NoA). Might want to make some changes or additions based on this.
  • the team incorporated as much of the original Japanese content as possible, As far as possible, they incorporate Japanese elements unless they would not be understood by the view, - a bit repetitive. Also, I don't understand what "by the view" means.
  • It is planned to follow this localization approach for Persona 5. - Again, my English isn't perfect, but to me it would sound more natural to say "This localization approach is also planned to be used for Persona 5".
  • The first Persona was referred to at the time as a sleeper hit, and the success of it and Eternal Punishment helped establish both Atlus and Megami Tensei in the west. - These two titles were not released in Europe. Is the claim still correct, or should it say "in North America"?
  • Persona 4 has in turn been examined by multiple sites over its portrayal of sexuality, particularly homosexuality and gender identity. - add a comma after "homosexuality" - as it is, it looks like gender identity is a sexuality.
  • Link anime
  • It was animated by A-1 Pictures, directed by Jun Matsumoto, with character designs by Soejima and Yuriko Ishii, Persona designs by Nobuhiko Genma, written by a team that included Yasuyuki Muto, Shogo Yasukawa, and Shinsuke Onishi, and music composed by Taku Iwasaki. - This doesn't really work. It was animated, directed, and written. "With character designs" and "and music composed by" don't really fit in with those - they should be added at the end, perhaps something like ", and features character designs by XYZ and music by ABC".
  • In 2014, a second series based on Persona 4 Golden, - The first P4 anime wasn't based on Golden. You'll have to rewrite to make this clear.
  • focusing the protagonist's encounters with new character Marie. - add "on" after "focusing" and "the" after "with".
  • The first Persona 4 series Persona 4 anime series
  • Persona 4: The Animation -The Factor of Hope- - We don't style Japanese titles like this (see MOS:JAPAN#Subtitles). Change to "Persona 4: The Animation - The Factor of Hope".
  • have been produced under the banner titled Persona 3 the Weird Masquerade - should this be something like "under the banner Persona 3: The Weird Masquerade"?
  • both produced by Marvelous AQL receiving limited runs in 2012 add "and" after "Marvelous AQL".

I think that is all. Sorry, this got way longer than I thought it would.--IDVtalk 21:30, 13 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

IDV, I've addressed everything above as best as I could. I included the scans for the Play Magazine reference as there are no page numbers available, so I included the scans so readers could verify the information for themselves. --ProtoDrake (talk) 00:00, 14 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Update: I've caught a few things I missed, and a few things you missed. --ProtoDrake (talk) 00:11, 14 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
All right, cool. It's getting late, so I'll take a look at it tomorrow.--IDVtalk 01:07, 14 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I've looked through it, and did some minor changes. I think it looks good now, and support this as an FA.--IDVtalk 08:08, 14 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by PresN[edit]

Reviewing... --PresN 18:12, 13 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • "it released in 2009 in Japan and North America, and 2010 in Europe as a digital release." - awkward, and the 3rd and 4th use of "release" in 3 sentences. Maybe "it was published in 2009 in Japan and North America, and 2010 in Europe as a digital release."
  • "Released in Japan in 2012, it was not released in the west. The original version was re-released" - triple released.
  • "it released in 2006 in Japan, 2007 in North America, and 2008 in Europe" - the game did not release itself, so it "was" released
  • Were Persona 3: The Night Before and Persona Ain Soph released outside of Japan, or only in Japanese?
  • "A spin-off for the Nintendo 3DS, Persona Q: Shadow of the Labyrinth" - the structure of the paragraph implies that this is a spinoff of the P4Arena games, rather than a standalone spinoff game
  • 9 sources at the end of a paragraph (Gameplay 1) is a bit much; it does seem like those could be dispersed better
  • "Many Personas are inspired by Graeco-Roman mythology: in Persona 4 they were based" - a colon indicates that the next bit is going to be a more precise clarification of the bit before the colon; as a result, it doesn't fit here, since nothing after the colon is an example of Graeco-Roman mythology.
  • "according to them, as nearly everyone experiences of being a student" - experiences of?
  • " the world of Persona 2 needed a different perspective to that of the current protagonist" - than that
  • A few redirects that don't look intentional- Jungian psychology (twice), dungeon crawler, Marvelous AQL, NIS America in the infobox
  • I had a bunch more, but between IDV's review and your edits they're now gone... --PresN 01:05, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@PresN: I've attended to all the points you raised. --ProtoDrake (talk) 09:04, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support --PresN 14:24, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Darkwarriorblake[edit]

  • "Persona (ペルソナ Perusona?), formerly marketed in Western territories as Shin Megami Tensei: Persona, is a series of role-playing video games" - This seems awkward and a huge mouthful, it goes on a tangent in the second word of the article. Is it appropriate to just say "(also known as Shin Megami Tensei: Persona)"?
  • "This motif will be more overtly expressed in Persona 5." What does this mean?
  • I don't feel like File:Persona5visual.jpg is sufficiently justified. I get what you're using it for but the explanation here is loose and not specific, it reads like it is the cover image for a different article.
  • " Persona 3, which allowed for sound streaming, he was able to fully express his musical style." What does this mean?
  • Is there any potential for a brief music clip to demonstrate the music discussed?
  • "The series currently consists of ten games" Maybe remove "currently". I think there is a guideline against this but I can't think what it is called, but it is non-specific, since the article could be not updated for another 10 years while 5 more games come out.
  • "Due to the company not having a European branch, Atlus has generally given publishing duties to other third-party publishers with branches in Europe, which frequently results in a long gap between the North American and European releases." I'm finding this sentence problematic. Do they publish ever in Europe or not? What is a "long gap"? Physical copies or digital copies?
  • So I take it Yu Namba is a person? Maybe say "translator Yu Namba" or something. Given the frequent use of exotic terms and names, I first thought this was a company until reading the following sentence.
  • Archiving seems thorough and date format, while not my preference, is consistent. Harder to judge content of the refs due to the language barrier.Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 22:22, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Darkwarriorblake: I've done my best to address all the issues you raised above. The sound streaming thing wasn't that clearly defined in the original reference, but I've done my best with the citable information. I changed the P5 artwork (that's being used as the infobox image for its article until actual cover art comes in) to actual promotional artwork for P3. I think this article needs such an image to help demonstrage the series' artstyle, alongside those images showing its recurring gameplay elements. As to the Japanese references, I've double-checked them myself during the writing process for this article. I give you my word that they're in order. --ProtoDrake (talk) 22:51, 15 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • To clarify I didn't have an issue with the previous image you were using, it just needed a more detailed justification for its use, so if you want to use that image and expand it's detail that's fine.
  • Darkwarriorblake It's alright. I'm fine using the image that's there now. The reason I used the P5 image was because an image related to P3 was being used in the "Related Media" section, which has since been removed. --ProtoDrake (talk) 23:05, 16 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • You've hit most of my issues, my only remaining concern is the use of "which frequently results in a long gap". Is it at all possible to clarify what a long gap is? Average of years? Months? Decades? Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 21:57, 16 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ranges from a few months to a year or more. So now says the text, with help from another reference. --ProtoDrake (talk) 23:05, 16 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support I'm happy with the article following the changes made. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 20:27, 17 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Coord note[edit]

Looks like this still needs a source review for formatting/reliability -- you can leave a request at the top of WT:FAC. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:35, 26 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Rhain on sources[edit]

As the original GA reviewer, I support the prose, and approve of all changes made since my review. I'll be taking a look at the sources. I went through with Checklinks. It's strange that it picks up on the Gpara.com references as dead, whereas they all work fine for me. It picked up on a few other faults, but they're all archived in the article anyway. I did a manual check, and my only suggestion is to link 4Gamer.net (refs 34, 49, 142). I really had a thorough look here, and I wish I had more to talk about, but that's honestly as nit-picky as I can get (although, of course, I'm not surprised). With that said, I'm happy to support on sources. – Rhain ☔ 07:41, 26 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Another thing: File:Persona 3 AD.jpg has no rationale to be used on this article (or on Megami Tensei, for that matter). I approve of its usage within the article, but the lack of rationale should be addressed. – Rhain ☔ 07:49, 26 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Rhain: I've picked up the stuff in the references. Also, I did my best with the image rationale. --ProtoDrake (talk) 09:22, 26 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
With the rationale, I'm fairly sure another {{Non-free use rationale}} should be added, with a different |Article=, like here. – Rhain ☔ 09:52, 26 March 2016 (UTC
@Rhain: Done, I think. --ProtoDrake (talk) 10:02, 26 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good to me! Happy to reinstate my support. Well done. – Rhain ☔ 10:05, 26 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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