Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Sabuktigin/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 1 June 2024 [1].

Sabuktigin[edit]

Nominator(s): Amir Ghandi (talk) 07:45, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is an article about a Turkic slave called Sabuktigin who became the amir of Ghazna (in Afghanistan) and founded the Ghaznavid dynasty. He was recorded to summon snowstorms by throwing dirt on the air and became the image of an archetype by contemporary historians. The article was promoted to GA status yesterday, but since I had prepared it with the intent of FAC I've nominated it right away. Thanks in advance. Amir Ghandi (talk) 07:45, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Airship[edit]

Will certainly comment on this! ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 08:04, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • Some images are missing alt text
Added
  • Suggest scaling up the map
Can't do that one if I'm using upright
Never mind, fixed
  • Don't use fixed px size
Fixed
  • File:Coin_of_the_Ghaznavid_amir_Sabuktigin,_citing_the_Samanid_amir_Nuh_II_as_his_overlord._Date_unknown,_minted_at_Ghazna.jpg needs a tag for the original work
Done
  • File:Mahmud_of_Ghazni_first_success.jpg: where is that publication date coming from? If the author is unknown, how do we know they died over 70 years ago?
Updated the info; the author was Walter Victor Hutchinson (d. 1950) and the book was published in 1933.
  • File:Fighting_between_Mahmud_of_Ghazni_and_Abu_'Ali_Simjuri.jpg: source link is dead. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:48, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Updated the link

Ajpolino[edit]

Very interesting topic about which I know nothing. Some drive-by comments:

  • "a slave market at Nakhshab... There, he was bought by Alp-Tegin" - A small thing, but Bosworth isn't explicit that Alp-Tegin bought Sebuktegin at Nakhshab. The cited source (2008b) says "he was sold as a slave at Nakhshab, and eventually bought by Alp-Tegin", and Bosworth 2020 says "he was brought as a slave to Naksav... and eventually acquired by the Samanid commander Alptegin." I'd suggest changing the wording here slightly to match the sources better.
Reworded it
  • "...in 962, as an act of rebellion, he left his position and sought to establish an independent rule in Ghazna," - the cited source (Bosworth 1985) describes Alptigin attempting to secure a preferred successor for the Samanid throne and failing, and therefore fleeing to the edge of Samanid control. Bosworth 2020, summarizes "Alptegin, after a failed coup d'etat, had to withdraw from Bukhara in 961 into northern Afghanistan". Suggest rewording as I don't think the current "as an act of rebellion..." is getting the right meaning across.
Reworded it
I still don't think the new wording "after he fell from grace, he left his position" is getting across the same thing as the source. Ajpolino (talk) 15:43, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He died shortly after in 963" I don't see this in the cited source (Bosworth 2008b)
Added the source supporting his year of death
  • "the most plausible way to maintain his authority was expansion" this reads as editorializing. I'd suggest cutting it. I see Bosworth writes "...a dynamic policy of expansion may have seemed... the best way to ensure its survival" but I think Bosworth is clearly speculating here, not stating Sebuktegin's views as a matter of researched fact.
Deleted it
  • Bosworth 1985 has a couple sentences on the Sebuktegin's marriage that resulted in Mahmud's birth. Given Mahmud's importance to Sebuktegin's legacy, I'd suggest including the info somewhere in the article.
  • "Qaratigin Isfijabi (d. 929), another rebellious Samanid ghulam" the cited article calls Isfijabi a "Samanid general" but doesn't say he was a slave or a rebel.
Added another source that calls him a Turkish slave commander.
  • "Using jihad as an excuse" - "as an excuse" reads as editorializing. Perhaps rephrase or expand to clarify?
Reworded it
  • "In his Pandnameh, Sabuktigin states that during his childhood, his faith differentiated from his captures, who worshipped a statue, therefore presenting himself as an adherent to the 'right' religion." - Not sure what you're trying to get across here. Suggest cutting this, unless I'm not understanding its importance?
Would this sentence be a good footnote to expand on the jihad against Hindus?
  • Bosworth 2020 says "He successfully combated [Kassa and Simjuri], but then sent Maḥmud with a force against Bukhara in order to intimidate Amir Nuḥ" but this latter episode isn't reflected in the article. Any particular reason?
That statement is not mentioned in other sources. Still, I hinted at the deteriorating relationship between Nuh and Sebuktigin in the next section.

Have to run now, will return later for more. Ajpolino (talk) 01:55, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Second batch of comments, including some small prose things:

  • "expanded his rule down to south of present-day Afghanistan and north of Balochistan" - "north of Balochistan" makes it sound like his territory didn't extend into Balochistan itself; the article implies it did.
  • "opening the gates of India" the figure of speech "opening the gates" seems a bit informal here for an encyclopedia.
  • "As a vassal of the Samanid Empire" (lead) and "he was not bound to any vassalage obligations" (Revolt) - are these in conflict with each other?
He was a vassal, just a very autonomous one. --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:46, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Typos? "conclution", "compromised",
Fixed. I still think this article is very good, but I should certainly have been more thorough with my review. --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:46, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • ...shared by later historians... and lived..." - "lived" seems an odd word choice here. Somewhat informal to say a conclusion "lived" on.
  • "later after" redundant.
Removed. --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:46, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Mu'in ad-Dawla" - can we get a translation for this alternative name?
  • I don't think "The conflicts among... resulted in enslavement like this one." is very helpful, and I'd suggest cutting it to help the story flow better.
This was added by me during my review. While I also thought it disrupted the flow (a little), I thought it was a interesting bit of info. Regardless, I've removed it now. --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:46, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and soon, by the age of eighteen, commanded"
Fixed. --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:46, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Alp-Tegin served as the head of the royal guard of the Samanid dynasty" - are we missing a superior position? The Bosworth 1985 article says he was head of the royal guard under Nasr, then "Under... Nūḥ (343-50/954-61) he enjoyed great favor, becoming governor of Balḵ and then commander-in-chief of the Samanid army in Khorasa."
  • "1m dirhams" you can write out "million" as you do later in the article.
Fixed. --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:46, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Fa'iq's men quickly disarrayed Sabuktigin's war elephants, which made him furious." The source says Fa'iq's men killed the elephants. Though I'm not sure this episode is worth including. It's hard to believe Sabuktigin's mood in response to this temporary defeat was recorded as a matter of historical fact.
  • "His war elephants crushed many of Abu Ali's soldiers and chief commanders." not sure this is important enough to include, but either way "and chief commanders" is not supported by the cited source.

I'll stop here for now to give some general comments. I think this article is not yet ready for FAC. Just looking at a few sources, I see several places where the text and the source don't quite align – I recommend going through each source with a fine-toothed comb to make sure it's accurately represented in the article. Also the prose is choppy and could use more work to help it flow smoothly and compellingly. This is a fine base, and it seems there are plenty of sources to support a solid article here. I'd suggest enlisting the help of other editors to finish preparing this for its next FAC run -- whether through peer review or by reaching out to editors with FAC experience. For now, I'll have to gently oppose. Best, Ajpolino (talk) 15:43, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

HF[edit]

I will try to review this soon. Hog Farm Talk 13:15, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • "he died on his way to Ghazna on August-September 997." - should this be in August-Septeber 997?
  • " (2008a) [1975]. "The Political and Dynastic History of the Iranian World (A.D. 1000-1217)". In Frye, R.N. (ed.). The Cambridge History of Iran: From the Arab invasion to the Saljuqs. The Cambridge History of Iran. Vol. 4. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. pp. 1–202. doi:10.1017/CHOL9780521069366.002. ISBN 9780511467769. OCLC 457145665." - this citation is incorrect. This chapter is actually found in Volume 5
  • "In Sabuktigin's Pandnama, a mirror for princes epistle, he attests " - is this appropriate phrasing? Bosworth 2020 notes that this was "attributed to him" and that it was "ostensibly an epistle of the "Mirror for Princes" genre", Bosworth 2008b says that it was "allegedly left to his son". Our article is treating this Pandnama as being of undisputed historical basis, but Bosworth is definitely expressing some uncertainty as to the provenance of this work. Askari outright states that it was probably written during the reign of Mahmud - Sabuktigin would have been dead by the reign of his son
  • "Sabuktigin accompanied him and helped defeating the Samanid army in Tokharistan." - this is not grammatical
  • "He flourished under Alp-Tegin's patronage and by the age of eighteen, commanded 200 ghulams (military slaves)." - Bosworth attributes this to the narrative of Nizam al-Mulk, but then notes on the very next page that "It is likely that Nizam al-Mulk's elaborate story of his gradual rise in his master's esteem is largely invention, and the Sebuktigin, although originally bought by Alptigin, did not achieve prominence until Alptigin and his son settled at Ghazna". In a different work, Bosworth describes the Nizam al-Mulk narrative as one that "should be treated with some caution"
  • "Sabuktigin increased his prestige among his troops" - Bosworth 1963 provides some additional detail as to how he accomplished this (wining and dining the officers and marrying the daughter of a local chief) - should that be mentioned?
  • Are pandnama and pandnameh variant spellings of the same thing? If so, standardize
  • Bosworth 2008b notes that he was of "pagan" birth; this article seems to treat him as always Muslim?
  • "Abu Ali's warriors found these terms too humiliating and thus attacked Sabuktigin's army on their own." - recommend clarifying as per the source that this was only a portion of Abu Ali's army that did this
  • "Fa'iq's men quickly disarrayed Sabuktigin's war elephants, which made him furious" - the source says that they killed the shahna in charge of the elephant force as a "quick demoralizing attempt"; would this have actually disarrayed the elephants? Demoralizing is not a word that is likely to be applied to the effects on elephants
  • "His war elephants crushed many of Abu Ali's soldiers and chief commanders" - as noted by Ajpolino above, the cited source does not mention chief commanders
  • "their dominance upon farming lands burdened the farmers and had pampered their production" - are you sure "pampered" is the word you want to use here?
  • Who is al-Utbi? This figure is mentioned several times, but always without a link or explanation as to who this is
  • "his faith differentiated from his captures" - Based on Askari, you want "captors", not "captures"
  • Bosworth 1963 has a little bit of information about his minting of coins (where his mint was and that they varied from the coinage of the Samanids, and that he struck coins for use in India) - should this be mentioned in the section about his administation
  • I agree with Ajpolino that "opened the gates of India" is not particularly encyclopedic language
  • "According to him, 'Buruskhan' was an altered version of 'Bars Khan' or 'Pars Khan' ("Persian Chief" according to Askari" - the cited source appears to express some uncertainty about this
  • Askari mentions that the pandnama states that he was worked as a shepherd for four years before being sold as a slave, should this be mentioned?

I'm leaning oppose like Ajpolino. I find the sum total of minor source-text integrity issues, information mentioned in various sources and not found in the article, and the article presenting theories, provenances, or narratives as factual when the relevant sources express uncertainty to be concerning. Hog Farm Talk 00:59, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, I wish to withdraw this nomination. Thanks. Amir Ghandi (talk) 08:23, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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