Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of schools in Northland, New Zealand

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by User:Scorpion0422 04:46, 12 June 2008 [1].

List of schools in Northland, New Zealand[edit]

I've listed this article as a featured list candidate because it is a comprehensive list of all current primary, intermediate and secondary schools recognised by the New Zealand Ministry of Education in the Northland Region of New Zealand. The rolls and decile ratings change each year. I last updated them in January and intend to update them once a year. For each school, the information in the table can be verified using the MOE link, and very occasionally if the MOE website is not up to date, using the link to decile updates in the references section. Very few of the schools on the list have their own article; the links are redirects to the local town, suburb or community, which includes a paragraph on the school. I created 72 articles on such communities, some of them stubs, most start-class, and a few B-class.

It is not practical to add a photo of every school, and attempting to do so would greatly increase the size of the article while adding little value. I believe the map of secondary education locations is sufficient to illustrate the article.

I'm not sure whether the incomplete lists of closed schools should remain in this article or be split off. I am not aware of any comprehensive and reliable source which lists closed schools for before 1999, so I have pieced these lists together from the lists that are comprehensive for schools closed since 1999, and the material in several books written on local history of the communities.

There is a recent peer review for the list.-gadfium 22:46, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support - I believe it meets the criteria. - Shudde talk 02:17, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Matthew

Comments

  • In the lead, Whangarei Boys and Girls schools redirect to Whangarei. At the very worst it should redirect to Whangarei#Education, but even this is a cop out. Also, the school links in the section at Whangarei#Education are Self-links, which doesn't help the reader here either.
All school which don't have articles now redirect to the Education section of the locality article. This may be a cop out, but not all schools warrant their own articles. This is a highly-debated area; see Wikipedia:Notability (schools).-gadfium 05:33, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • A NZ Yahoo! search returns enough results for Springbank School that it could have it's own article, not be redirected to Kerikeri
Some schools could have their own articles, especially those schools offering secondary education. Such schools have their redirects marked with {{R with possibilities}}. I provide a sentence or two for every school in the locality article, which I believe is sufficient.-gadfium 05:33, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The lead already says "Several Te Kura Kaupapa Māori schools exist, all but one in the Far North District. These schools teach solely or principally in the Māori language." I don't understand how this is unclear.-gadfium 06:36, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The term now links to the new article Kura Kaupapa Māori.-gadfium 00:12, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
OK, that's cool. what I meant was to perhaps translate it if possible. As it was, I don't think people outside of New Zealand would know what it means. This is better, though :) Matthewedwards (talk · contribs · count · email) 00:37, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Kawakawa is a disambig page. There's a few instances of this
Done. I've fixed several links to dab pages for Kawakawa and Tikoki, also in the now split-off Closed schools in Northland, New Zealand. I've checked each entry in the localities column and can't see any more.-gadfium 06:36, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Really sorry, but all those piped links which go to the town have to go. criteria 3 says "It comprehensively covers the defined scope, providing a complete set of items where practical". What's the point in making piped links to the towns when that link is there anyway under "Location"?
All piped links go to an article which contains some information about the school. As a result of your feedback, the piped links go directly to the relevant section. I believe this satisfies the Featured List criteria.-05:33, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
  • The notes [1] to [5] should be explained in the Lead section, rather than being relegated to references
Done.-gadfium 22:38, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've linked to the United Kingdom articles Year One (school) and Sixth form in the lead, as the age ranges are similar to New Zealand's. As I understand it, first grade is for slightly older children than New Zealand's Year 1 is.-gadfium 22:38, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Roll could be called "Enrolment figure", unless Roll is the term used by the Ministry of Education
"Roll" is the term using by the Ministry of Education (actually, "School Roll". I can change this if you insist, but the longer title carries no more information. This might be a difference between New Zealand and British English.-gadfium 05:33, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No that's fine, then. Matthewedwards (talk · contribs · count · email) 00:37, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move all the closed schools to a new article. I doubt it will pass when it states that the list is incomplete
Done. I will improve the format of the new article, Closed schools in Northland, New Zealand, in the next day or two.-gadfium 05:33, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Blomfield Special School and Resource Centre has no entry for Years
Done. Blomfield is not a conventional school; it deals with intellectually handicapped students. "Years" of education is not an appropriate measure for this school, so I have given the age range of students accepted.-gadfium 05:33, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Use an mdash (—) to indicate schools without a website, per WP:DASH and WP:HYPHEN
Done.-gadfium 06:36, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move the website and MOE columns to the end of the table, as these are more like references
Done.-gadfium 22:38, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can English translations be provided for the Māori named schools?
Done.-gadfium 22:38, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I love seeing lists that do not relate to North America or the UK, and this one is especially nice because I can relate to it on a personal level as I lived in Whangarei for two years when I was 16–18. Unfortunately I can't support at the moment :( Matthewedwards (talk · contribs · count · email) 03:12, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have tried to satisfy some of your comments, and replied to others. I intend to satisfy or reply to the remainder over the next day or two.-gadfium 05:33, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I believe I have now satisfied or responded to all of your comments.-gadfium 22:38, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The gender column is fairly unnecessary as all but two are coed, and those two are explicitly mentioned in the lead section
Gender criteria is one of the defining aspects of a school. For Northland, it isn't terribly important because only two schools are single-sex, and as you say this is mentioned in the lead. However, I think the tables should have the same layout as those for other regions of New Zealand, and elsewhere there are greater proportions of single-sex schools, including some with names which don't indicate gender, e.g. Auckland Grammar School.-gadfium 05:33, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
But we're not reviewing other pages. On this one it's not really needed. If more NZ school lists are brought to FLC, I don't think they'll be opposed because they do have a gender column when this one doesn't. Anyway, it's still early on in the process so let's just wait and see what other reviewers think. In the meantime, you've satisfied all my other points so I've hidden those and I've left this one comment open so other reviewers can see it. Otherwise, a great list, well done. Matthewedwards (talk · contribs · count · email) 00:37, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I wrote a little python script to reorder columns in the tables to move the website and MOE columns to the end. I can very easily modify it to remove the gender column if necessary. I'll wait for more feedback first.-gadfium 02:27, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That sounds extremely handy. Can you respond on my talk page about how that works? Would you be prepared to share it? :) Matthewedwards (talk · contribs · count · email) 02:36, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, not enough in-line citations for the list itself. GreenJoe 23:50, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • That's very vague. You may want to be more specific, or your oppose could be disregarded. - Shudde talk 01:21, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • How many in-line citations do you believe are necessary, per school? At present, apart from any school website, which is a primary source, there's one - the MOE link. I could add a link to the latest Education Review Office report if necessary, but the MOE link verifies the basic information in the table, and the MOE listing links to ERO reports. Sometimes MOE carries an old school website or misses a new one, but in this case the accuracy of the list is pretty obvious. The decile ratings for schools are updated about October each year, but MOE updates its figures about February. That's why we have a separate reference for deciles. At this time of year, it isn't an issue as MOE is up to date. ERO information would be significantly less up to date than MOE, on average, since ERO reports are only held every few years.-gadfium 06:29, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
TBH, I would be inclined to say that this editor's oppose will probably not be counted, considering he has popped up out of nowhere today and opposed every single FLC and supported the removal of every single FLRC. As you said, the school websites are all primary sources, and as WP:PSTS says, an article shouldn't rely on those. The inclusion of the MOE links for me satisfies secondary sources. Matthewedwards (talk · contribs · count · email) 07:45, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support I really like this. I can relate to the subject, it is interesting, well written and presented, and it's about something in the Southern hemisphere, something which Wikipedia lacks too much of, IMO. Matthewedwards (talk · contribs · count · email) 01:45, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments I am with Matthew here regarding the "gender" column. It's kinda...weird to see "coed" in every row. Also, what do the numbers mean in the last column? I couldn't find an explanation.--Crzycheetah 07:30, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The number in the last column is the New Zealand Ministry of Education Institution Number. It links to the appropriate record in the Ministry of Education database, which verifies the information in the table row.
I'll remove the gender column if consensus is for the removal.-gadfium 09:32, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'd like to see a note in this page that explains what those numbers mean.--Crzycheetah 09:43, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've added a note, at the end of the lede.-gadfium 20:02, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove total "coed" column and say so in one statement elsewhere with the single exception.
  • "state integrated" lower case in lead, but I in table? Why is it explained twice in the lead?
  • "these are schools formed by a religious body but have subsequently become a part of the state system"—ungrammatical.
  • "at 5 years old"—at the age of five.
  • g for Government, normally.
  • Rolls provided "each year"? Safer to give the actual year, to be updated when the info is updated. TONY (talk) 08:33, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'll work on these in the morning.-gadfium 09:09, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have made the changes you suggest. Since you were the third person to suggest that the gender column be dropped, I have removed it.-gadfium 23:22, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • Are the links in References actually used as general references? If so, then have a section called References, and then have "General" and general references under that, and "Specific" and specific references under that.
  • The web references are missing access dates, which are required per WP:CITE/ES

Gary King (talk) 21:00, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've reorganised the references as you suggest, and added access dates.-gadfium 23:49, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support: I like the way you explained all of the various terms on your table. I suggest, however, that you link "Ministry of Education" to Ministry of Education (New Zealand).--Dem393 (talk) 19:29, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've linked the first occurrence, in the fourth paragraph.-gadfium 21:12, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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