Wikipedia:Move review

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Move review is a process to formally discuss and evaluate a contested close of Wikipedia page move discussions, including requested moves (RM), categories for discussion discussions (CfD), and redirects for discussion discussions (RfD), to determine if the close was reasonable, or whether it was inconsistent with the spirit and intent of Wikipedia common practice, policies, or guidelines.

Prior to submitting a review of a page move's close, please attempt to resolve any issues on the closer's talk page. See step one below.

While the page move close is under review, any involved editor is free to revert any undiscussed moves of a nominated page without those actions being considered a violation of Wikipedia:No wheel warring.

What this process is not[edit]

Shortcut

WP:MRNOT

This review process should be focused on the move discussion and the subsequent results of the move discussion, not on the person who closed the discussion. If you have ongoing concerns about a closer, please consult with the closer or post at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. Move review requests which cast aspersions or otherwise attack other editors may be speedily closed.

Do not request a move review if someone has boldly moved a page and you disagree. Instead, attempt to discuss it with the editor, and if the matter continues to be unresolved, start a formal WP:RM discussion on the article's talk page.

Do not request a move review simply because you disagree with the outcome of a page move discussion. While the comments in the move discussion may be discussed in order to assess the rough consensus of a close, this is not a forum to re-argue a closed discussion.

Disagreements with Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions (WP:RMCI), WP:Article titles, the Manual of Style, a naming convention or the community norm of consensus should be raised at the appropriate corresponding talk page.

CfDs^[1] and RfDs can only be reviewed here if the relevant discussion was limited in scope to renaming; CfDs or RfDs^[2] involving deletion should be reviewed at Wikipedia:Deletion review.

Instructions[edit]

Initiating move reviews[edit]

Shortcut

WP:IMR

Editors desiring to initiate a move review should follow the steps listed below. In the reason parameter, editors should limit their requests to one or both of the following reasons:

[Closer] did not follow the spirit and intent of WP:RMCI because [explain rationale here] in closing this requested move discussion.
[Closer] was unaware of significant additional information not discussed in the page move discussion: [identify information here] and the discussion should be reopened and relisted.

Editors initiating a move review discussion should be familiar with the closing instructions provided in WP:RMCI.

Steps to list a new review request[edit]


1.	Before requesting a move review: please attempt to discuss the matter with the closer of the page move discussion on the closer's talk page. Move review is a process that takes several days, sometimes weeks, to close. On the closer's talk page, you can probably resolve the matter much more quickly. There could have been a mistake, miscommunication, or misunderstanding, and a full, formal move review may not be needed. Such discussion also gives the closer the opportunity to clarify the reasoning behind a decision. If things don't work out, and you decide to request a review of the closure, please note in the review that you did first try discussing the matter with the closer. To clarify: You absolutely MUST attempt to discuss the matter with the closer FIRST, and give them a few days to respond.
2.	Follow this link to this month's log and paste the template skeleton at the top of the discussions (but not at the top of the page). Then fill in page with the name of the contested move page, rm_page with the name of the move discussion page if needed, rm_section if needed, closer and closer_section with the post-move discussion information, and reason with the reason why the page move should be reviewed. For example: Copy this template skeleton for most pages: {{subst:move review list \|page= \|rm_page= <!--Not needed if the move discussion is on the talk page of the page--> \|rm_section= <!--Name of the section with the move request--> \|closer= <!--User name of editor who closed the move request--> \|closer_section= <!--Name of the section of closer's talk page where discussion took place--> \|reason= }} ~~~~ If either the `\|closer=` or `\|closer_section=` parameter is omitted, the result will include "No discussion on closer's talk page". When `\|closer= < closer's username >` and `\|closer_section= < section header on closer's talk page where there was discussion about the close >` are correctly filled in, the result will include a "Discussion with closer" link to that discussion. If the `\|closer_section=` link is to the section on the closer's talk page where the closer has only been notified of Move review (see step 3) and the closer has not actually discussed their close with another editor on their talk page, the result will include a "No discussion on closer's talk page" link to the Move review notice.
3.	If you have not done so already, inform the closer of the Move review discussion by adding the following on their user talk page: `{{subst:move review note\|PAGE_NAME}} ~~~~`
4.	Leave notice of the move review in the same section as, but outside of and above the closed original move discussion. Use the following template: `{{move review talk\|date=9 May 2024}}`. Do not tag the article.
5.	If the current month discussions are not already included in the discussion section below. Add the new log page to the top of the active discussions section. `{{Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2024 May}}`
6.	The discussion with closer and notices required above are sufficient notification; you are not required to individually notify participants in the prior move discussion of the move review. However, if you individually notify any of them, you must individually notify all of them by posting a message about the move review on each participant's respective user talk page.

Commenting in a move review[edit]

In general, commenters should prefix their comments with either Endorse or Overturn (optionally stating an alternative close) followed by their reasoning. Generally, the rationale should be an analysis of whether the closer properly followed Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions, whether it was within closer's discretion and reasonably interpreted consensus in the discussion, while keeping in mind the spirit of Wikipedia policy, precedent and project goal. Commenters should be familiar with WP:RMCI, which sets forth community norms for closers of page move discussions.

If the close is considered premature because of on-going discussion or if significant relevant information was not considered during the discussion, commenters should suggest Relist followed by their rationale.

Commenters should identify whether or not they were involved or uninvolved in the RM discussion under review.

The closer of the page move under discussion should feel free to provide additional rationale as to why they closed the RM in the manner they did and why they believe the close followed the spirit and intent of WP:RMCI.

Remember that move review is not an opportunity to rehash, expand upon or first offer your opinion on the proper title of the page in question – move review is not a do-over of the WP:RM discussion but is an opportunity to correct errors in the closing process (in the absence of significant new information). Thus, the action specified should be the editor's analysis of whether the close of the discussion was reasonable or unreasonable based on the debate and applicable policy and guidelines. Providing evidence such as page views, ghits, ngrams, challenging sourcing and naming conventions, etc. to defend a specific title choice is not within the purview of a move review. Evidence should be limited to demonstrating that the RM closer did or did not follow the spirit and intent of WP:RMCI in closing the page move discussion.

Closing reviews[edit]

A nominated page should remain on move review for at least seven days. After seven days, an uninvolved editor will determine whether a consensus exists to either endorse the close or overturn the close. If that consensus is to Overturn Close, the MRV closer should take the appropriate actions to revert any title changes resulting from the RM close. If the consensus was to relist, the page should be relisted at Wikipedia:Requested moves, Wikipedia:Categories for discussion, or Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion. If the consensus is to Endorse Close, no further action is required on the article title. If the MRV closer finds that there is no consensus in the move review, then in most cases this has the same effect as Endorse Close and no action is required on the article title. However, in some cases, it may be more appropriate to treat a finding of "no consensus" as equivalent to a "relist"; MRV closers may use their discretion to determine which outcome is more appropriate.

Use {{subst:move review top}} and {{subst:move review bottom}} to close such discussions.

Also, add a result to the {{move review talk}} template on the talk page where the original discussion took place, e.g. {{move review talk|date=April 24 2015|result=Closure endorsed}}.

Typical move review decision options[edit]

The following set of options represent the typical results of a move review decision, although complex page move discussions involving multiple title changes may require a combination of these options based on the specific details of the RM and MRV discussions.

MRV closer's decision	RM closer's decision	Move review closed as	Status of RM after MRV close
1. Endorse	Moved / Not moved	No action required	Closed
2. Overturn	Not moved	Option 1: (If RM consensus is unclear or significantly divided) Reopen and relist RM	Open
	Not moved	Option 2: (If consensus to move to a new title is clear) Move title to new title and close RM	Closed
	Moved	Move title back to pre-RM title, and reopen and relist RM if appropriate	Open
3. Relist	Moved / Not moved	Reopen and relist RM and if moved, move title back to pre-RM title	Open

Notes[edit]

^ Those that involve renames (Template:Cfr), for all other types of CFDs use deletion review.
^ Generally for those that don't involve any proposed or suggested deletion, where only the redirect's target was being discussed or if the redirect should be a disambiguation page, for other (even those that were retargeted where deletion was proposed or considered) use deletion review.

Active discussions[edit]

2024 May[edit]

2018–2019 Gaza border protests[edit]

Despite around 40 very high quality sources being provided to prove that "Great March of Return" was indeed the WP:COMMONNAME, the request was closed as no consensus due to some opposition that did not provide any guideline-based counteraguments.

The closer cited on their talk page that some opposers claimed that some of the sources using this name were cherrypicked; but this claim was refuted by the argument that these sources using "Great March of Return" were newer, which actually further aligns with WP:NPOVNAME that gives an exception for names "remembered or connected with a particular issue years later." Furthermore, they were only a tiny portion of the 40 RS provided.

This page move fully aligns with WP guidelines and has 40 very high quality sources supporting it as the common name; there is no reason for it to be rejected. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:43, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[Involved] I have to admit to being a bit disappointed with this close which seems rather like a proforma vote count rather than engagement with the arguments made based on sourcing. The only issue was whether commonname should apply, to me a sourcing issue so I didn't really understand the close comment "...or which one is more neutral". The RM ran from 24 March to 3 May, a lot longer than normal and I think the close deserves a reconsideration, at the very least the close should be amended so as to issue an invitation to run the RM again, this time with the benefit of the full source analysis from the start. Selfstudier (talk) 18:27, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Multiple page move of David articles[edit]

Closer: User:Compassionate727

Non-admin close without consensus (or anything even close to a consensus).
Discussion at closer's TP User talk:Compassionate727#Closure of David III of Tao → David III

At first the discussion was closed as No Cosensus,[1] (24 April 2024)
After a protest from the pro-move side on 26 April 2024, the closer returned on 30 April 2024, reopened the closed discussion and switched the result to move [2] and performed the move.
Original participants were not notified the closer had reopened and changed the result of the discussion or given an opportunity to respond to the reopened discussion.
After the switch, they posted indicating they performed the move and stated the discussion was closed (irony) to further discussion, referred discussion to here.

Closing a discussion, then reopening it days later to change the result in inappropriate. They did this without notifying the participants and giving them a chance to participate in the new/reopened discussion. Then stating the matter is closed to further discussion is inappropriate after they reopened the discussion to change the result. See [3]. // Timothy :: talk 04:03, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Overturn and restore original page names. per WP:BADNAC, a non-admin closure is not appropriate for moves in which the outcome either is close or is likely to be controversial. The discussion showed the move did not have consensus. The way the discussion was closed as no consensus and then reopened and the result changed (without notifying the original participants so they could participate in the reopened discussion) is inappropriate. // Timothy :: talk 04:16, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn (involved). Attempting to close controversial and highly divided RMs is precisely what WP:BADNAC instructs non-admins not to do, and this contentious RM certainly qualifies. I assume the closer in this case was trying to be helpful (even though they were made aware of BADNAC in an earlier close and still chose to do the same thing here), but a non-admin closing the same RM twice in two completely opposite ways is unhelpful and has the result of leaving no confidence whatsoever in the outcome. The closer seems to recognize this, suggesting the "flipping" was messy and likely to make participants unhappy, but they refused to consider resolving it through discussion, instead directing people straight to MR. The RM should be reopened so that it can be properly addressed by admin. ╠╣uw [talk] 10:11, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Update: the closer’s statement in this MR that they had no intention of inviting discussion on the flip, and that others’ participation “would not have been helpful and was not wanted” (!) seems extremely problematic.

It’s worth re-iterating that no one (admin or non) should be flipping the results of closed RMs without re-opening and allowing input from participants. Regardless of the NAC issue, the way this was handled seems pretty blatantly wrong, as is the fact that the flip was apparently made on the basis of talk-page lobbying by a single involved individual. ╠╣uw [talk] 14:01, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse (involved). The discussion was never re-opened. The closer’s decision was simply changed after oversights were pointed out in their original close. What needs to be evaluated here is the final close, which found in favor of community consensus over local consensus based on how well arguments were based in policy. I applaud Compassionate727 for recognizing their responsibility for “evaluating [participants’] arguments, assigning due weight accordingly, and giving due consideration to the relevant consensus of the Wikipedia community in general as reflected in applicable policy, guidelines and naming conventions.” per WP:RMCIDC which stems from WP:CONSENSUS and WP:LOCALCONSENSUS. In both the original and revised closing they referred to how “weighty” the arguments were, and how they evaluated that. This is an exemplary closing, actually, which has made my list of Great RM decisions. Bravo!!! Well done!!! —В²C ☎ 17:10, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Welp, here we are again. I think I've already said enough about why I closed it the way I did, but I perhaps need to say something about my decision to revise my close. I made a mistake weighing the arguments the first time I closed this discussion; Born2cycle brought this concern to my attention on my talk page, as instructions at WP:MR stipulate he should do. I honestly did not want to substantially revise my close because of the drama it would cause, but the more I thought about it, the more obvious it was to me that I would have closed it the other way had I not made this mistake and that I needed to take responsibility for that. I therefore revised my close, which is not particularly unusual, even if the effects of doing so are not usually so dramatic; it was never my intention to "reopen" the discussion, as more participation would not have been helpful and was not wanted. I did consider merely vacating my close and leaving it to someone else, but people have been loathe to close these monarch RMs and they seem to end up here at move review regardless, so I concluded that simply vacating would merely be wasting another closer's time and that I should just bite the bullet on this. I regret the disruption I have caused, and if consensus here is that I made things worse with this course of action, I will learn from that. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 21:19, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse (uninvolved) per Born2cycle, I don't know why the David III wasn't moved, if there was consensus it was ambiguous it should become a DAB. Crouch, Swale (talk) 22:23, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. When the dust settles a bit it should be reconsidered. —В²C ☎ 23:15, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see why it couldn't boldly be done now. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 01:11, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It’s clearly potentially controversial. — В²C ☎ 03:33, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Turning David III into a DAB page? Possibly, but that doesn't seem likely to me. No harm in waiting though. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 12:25, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
David III of Tao is apparently the primary topic for David III. Making David III a DAB when it should be a WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT (as it currently is) if not the title is controversial. — В²C ☎ 05:15, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ambiguity alone is no reason for a dab page, of course, since one of the uses of the ambiguous title may be the primary topic. David III needs to be reconsidered with respect to whether it has a PT. — В²C ☎ 20:18, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse the difference between these moves and say a no consensus AfD is that the moves were clearly done in consideration with our current policies and guidelines. A non-admin close here isn't clearly an issue, either, as non-admins can move pages, and wasn't a poor close. SportingFlyer T·C 05:07, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse (uninvolved). The current close is a fair reading of the discussion, and it appropriately weighs the arguments based on their grounding in policy. Re: the changing of the original close, I believe everything was appropriate in that respect as well. The challenge of the first close was because of the policy interpretation used in the closure (specifically, B2C contested Compassionate's reading of WP:RECOGNIZABILITY), and did not attempt to relitigate the underlying reasons for or against the move. It's normal for closers to sometimes change their minds in response to this sort of feedback (otherwise, there'd be no point in holding any discussion before jumping to MRV); admittedly it's less common for closers to change their close directly rather than reopen the discussion, but Compassionate's comment above provides a sensible rationale for that choice. Finally, the closer's non-admin status is irrelevant: WP:RMNAC advises non-admins to be cautious when closing contentious RMs, but emphasizes that it is nevertheless permissible. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 17:12, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In this case a single participant who disliked the original outcome of the RM directly lobbied the closer on their talk-page with arguments that no one else involved in the RM had a chance to discuss or respond to. Closing based on that was not just "less common" but bypassed how RMs are supposed to work.

Reopening the discussion based on such feedback would have been perfectly fine and consistent with our procedures... but unilaterally flipping the outcome based on a single participant’s talk-page lobbying (and without offering any opportunity for response or comment from anyone else) simply was not. Regardless of whether it ultimately concludes with retaining or moving, reopening seems necessary. ╠╣uw [talk] 17:42, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse < uninvolved > per above args; closure is reasonable and in line with the closing instructions. Not the first of these and might not be the last of 'em. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 17:17, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: This close was simply unacceptable. As stated above "Reopening the discussion based on such feedback would have been perfectly fine and consistent with our procedures... but unilaterally flipping the outcome based on a single participant’s talk-page lobbying (and without offering any opportunity for response or comment from anyone else) simply was not." I'll note again the closer waited days after the close to change the result, after others had stopped watching because the discussion was closed (and probably are not aware of this review).

If this is sustained, what is the next level of appeal? Either way there needs to be a clear community consensus on is it is permissible to return to discussion you had closed, wait, then reopen it and change the outcome and how long they can wait before reopening and changing the outcome. I do not think it is, but if the community consensus is that a closer can do this, it should be clear. // Timothy :: talk 18:07, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Depending on how this closes, I'm sure you can bring this up at the administrator's noticeboard, but I must note I don't really see the issue here. There was less than a week between the original close and the revised close, asking closers to self-review is a generally recommended part of the appeals process which implies that a closer can revisit their close within a reasonable timeframe, and as someone with absolutely no interest in the topic area, the updated close appears to have better applied the guideline. SportingFlyer T·C 06:43, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Overturn largely per TimothyBlue. Changing the result of an already-closed discussion in this way, without the checks and balances of a centralised review location like this, and on the basis of the lobbying of one user is not something I can comfortably live with. This should not have been a NAC and, in my opinion, definitely shouldn't have been changed post-close in the manner in which it was. Daniel (talk) 04:43, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As a quick heads-up for participants and the eventual closer, a notification about this discussion was posted on AN yesterday. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 19:18, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The claim that closers are allowed to return days after they have closed a discussion and change the outcome without any further discussion needs to be reviewed by the wider community. Aside from the original WP:BADNAC, this claim is a problem.
If the side opposing the close wanted to dispute the close, we have a process for review that is outlined in guidelines. You want a review of a move, come here and post. Simple as that. This is not what happened, instead an individual disregarded this process and disregarded the close notice not to modify the closed discussion and continued. Four days after the close they convinced the closer on their talk page[4] (not even in the move discussion) to change the outcome. So far we have:
- A WP:BADNAC #2 (Problem #1)
- Two individual then disregarded the closing notice and continued a (now one sided) discussion[5] that was marked not to be modified. When this didn't initially work, one started a another discussion on the closer's talk page.[6] (Problem #2)
- A closer that returned four days later and reopened a closed discussion without notifying the participant (Problem #3)
- Then changed the outcome of the "closed" discussion and then closed it off again to prevent further discussion (Problem #4)
There are four clear problems with the close in this situation. It needs to be clear this is not an acceptable way to close a discussion. This move needs to be vacated and reversed, a new discussion opened and a proper close made after the discussion has run it's course. If this is sustained, then guidelines need to be changed to reflect this. // Timothy :: talk 21:41, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Look at #1 of WP:IMR: Before requesting a move review: please attempt to discuss the matter with the closer of the page move discussion on the closer's talk page. Move review is a process that takes several days, sometimes weeks, to close. On the closer's talk page, you can probably resolve the matter much more quickly. There could have been a mistake, miscommunication, or misunderstanding, and a full, formal move review may not be needed. Such discussion also gives the closer the opportunity to clarify the reasoning behind a decision. If things don't work out, and you decide to request a review of the closure, please note in the review that you did first try discussing the matter with the closer. To clarify: You absolutely MUST attempt to discuss the matter with the closer FIRST, and give them a few days to respond. This clearly states that discussing the close with the closer and allowing the closer to modify or explain the decision is the first step in the move review process, and notes that it can take several days. I understand you are frustrated with the way this has been closed, but I strongly believe you are trying to create a problem where one does not exist. SportingFlyer T·C 22:10, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@SportingFlyer: you are reading into the above, it never states that a closer can reopen, change the result, and then close the discussion without additional discussion. This issue here is larger than this single discussion. and regardless of how this discussion turns out (which should close this individual matter), an RfC needs to be created to clarify guidelines regarding reopening closed discussions and changing the outcome. // Timothy :: talk 23:02, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's always been a part of the process. "There could have been a mistake..." clearly implies the closer can change the result of a closed discussion. SportingFlyer T·C 23:08, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It absolutely does not say the close can change the result of the discussion. If there was a mistake, the closer could have reopened the discussion, stating their reason; no one would have had a problem with them doing this. The problem is when then continue with a second BADNAC. If the closer felt the need to reopen and change the result, it was clear that this meets BADNAC #2, but the closer disregarded this (a second time) and closed the discussion again.

This can be solved by vacating the second BADNAC, reopening the discussion, and after a reasonable period for renewed discussion, requesting a proper close. If the BADNAC close was the right outcome, a proper close should have the same result. // Timothy :: talk 23:26, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

SportingFlyer: No one is saying that it's wrong to discuss a close with the closer, or that the closer can return to explain their decision. Those things are fine.
The problem (or rather the largest of several) is flipping the result of a closed RM without first re-opening it for discussion. Per our closing instructions, not even administrators are entitled to that; for example, an admin addressing a clearly improper move closure is instructed to "revert the closure and re-open the discussion."
The purpose of re-opening the RM is to give all the other participants in the discussion the opportunity to address and debate whatever points, concerns, or challenges are being raised. Unilaterally performing an un-discussed flip of the result deprives participants of that opportunity and is inappropriate. More specific to this case, the flip was the result of direct talk-page lobbying by a single involved individual, and the closer's comment above that "more participation would not have been helpful and was not wanted" adds to the concern. (B2C was the only one who's participation was "wanted"?)
As such, I share TimothyBlue's concern, since this practice certainly doesn't seem to be one that should be endorsed or legitimized. ╠╣uw [talk] 10:18, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment <uninvolved> There is nothing wrong with revising a closure. It's never been written down because this common practice has never been controversial before. Obviously it'd be a problem to change a closure deceptively or after a long period of time, but what's happening here is a closer giving genuine consideration to feedback, and that's something to celebrate rather than condemn. The closer's non-admin status is also not an issue; RM is much more tolerant than AfD of controversial NACs, and here "the mere fact that the closer was not an admin is never sufficient reason to reverse a closure". No opinion on whether the closure itself was within discretion. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 02:06, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn (uninvolved). WP:AT is supposed to be a general principle that may not be suitable for every individual case, and when the participants judged WP:AT to not be suitable for this particular set of articles, the closer should take that into account and make the closure decision accordingly. Also, if someone on your talk page wanted you to change your closure outcome, the discussion should be re-opened for transparency: so that everyone can see what's going on and what may be influencing the closure. 123957a (talk) 13:45, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse, closers being willing to revise their closes is good. Mach61 13:48, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

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