Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Korea/Archive 19
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circular referencing
Perhaps, you can help solving the circular referencing problem that been exposed at Talk:Han Moo-sook, i.e. within your scope. Cheers. Pldx1 (talk) 11:15, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
Sentence translation request
Could someone provide me with an accurate translation of the following article title please?
'엠카운트다운' 방탄소년단 지민-진…'찰떡 호흡' 선사
I understand the first half, but not the part after the ellipses. Online translators/papago are giving me really weird results. Thank you in advance! -- Carlobunnie (talk) 02:39, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
- It seems to say "BTS' Jimin and Jin showed perfect teamwork on M Countdown". 찰떡 호흡 seems to be a slang term for 'perfect teamwork'. Abdotorg (talk) 13:29, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
- @Abdotorg: Thank you! -- Carlobunnie (talk) 18:11, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
Request for comment (consensus needed) on SMA 2021 Legend Awards
This discussion needs consensus, please head over to Talk:Seoul Music Awards#Legend Award to join the discussion.
If there's consensus made, the discussion can serve as reference for Awards and nominations list article/section. — Paper9oll (📣 • 📝) 17:08, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
Name usage (mononym vs full name)
I have seen for BLP articles, that if the person is best known by a mononym (Beyonce, Madonna etc.) they are referred to as such throughout their article, and not by their given last name, as is standard for everyone else. However, for SK BLPs it seems to be more inconsistent. Eg. Taemin is Lee Taemin but he's referred to as Taemin throughout his article, and not by Lee, because that is how he is known. Daehwi however, is consistently referred to by his surname Lee in his article though he is also best known by his mononym. For Gidle's Miyeon it's the same thing, she's referred to by Cho in her article. The whole reason I'm bringing any of this up is because on the M Countdown page, someone changed Miyeon's name to Cho Miyeon in the hosts section. To me that's incorrect and inconsistent because Shinee's Key and Got7's BamBam are listed mononymously. Daehwi is also mentioned w his full name listed out rather than just Daehwi. I was about to change both but then I thought it would be better to come here and ask for general clarity first. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 20:36, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
- I would suggest if the article is already using the full name, it should be the correct usage throughout Wikipedia. There sadly isn't a consensus on mononym vs full name in many articles. (On a case-by-case basis, it's been leaning towards mononym). Evaders99 (talk) 21:27, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
- For me personally, if the article name is their full name then referring to them by their surname would be more appropriate, but if the article name is their mononym/stage name then I would refer to them by that throughout the article instead. On other articles though such as the one you mentioned though I don't see any issue with using all mononyms if that is mmore comsistent for that particular article. Alex (talk) 21:53, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
- Evaders99 wouldn't it be a good idea then to finally establish consensus once and for all on the matter so that the discrepancies can be fixed? Alexanderlee but if the article shouldn't even be titled after their full name in the first place (otherwise Beyonce's article would be titled Beyonce Knowles, Gaga's would be Stefani Germanotta), why should we continue enforcing the wrong thing? Also, I mentioned multiple articles in my comment so could you specify which one you were referring to here: "such as the one you mentioned", because I can't tell who you meant in your reply.
- In news articles, these singers are referred to by their mononyms (both in eng and non-eng sources). At awards shows and on their albums it's usually their mononyms. I've recently been editing the Park Jimin (BTS) page and also at times wondered if Park or Jimin was more appropriate to refer to him by. All of this begs the question, why should this particular project's practices be different to the general standard established for BLPs across WP? The inconsistency is so great to the point that edits to correct in-article name usage "mistakes" (and by ext requests for changes to article titles) always cause contention/edit warring (I'm specifically recalling multiple instances of this happening on the Kim Seokjin article, Alexanderlee you might remember these as I think we both reverted attempts then) hence me being here. Didn't want someone reverting me on the MCD page even though my edits wouldn't be wrong. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 22:51, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
- I meant the M Countdown article ad that was the only one you mentioned which wasn't a person's article, sorry for the confusion. If the article should be renamed then that's another discussion to be had on the relevant article, but that didn't seem to be what your initial comment was discussing and I haven't suggested to enforce the wrong thing anyhere. If an article title uses the person's full name, as Kim Seok-jin, Lee Dae-whi and Cho Mi-yeon and others do then referring to them by their surname is more apropriate. Referring to them by their mononym/stage name would be appropriate if the article title was the mononym/stage name (as Beyoncé and Gaga's are). Alex (talk) 23:41, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
- @Alexanderlee: Ah, I understand now. So I can safely change it on the MCD page since other mononyms are also used. And just to clarify, I wasn't saying you were suggesting we enforce wrong practices. I was just additionally addressing the practice of naming articles after full names rather than mononyms, even when the mononym is more widely known, since you mentioned that ("...if the article name is their full name then referring to them by their surname would be more appropriate") in your comment. Ik that's a whole other can of worms by itself. Thank you for your responses. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 23:58, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
- I meant the M Countdown article ad that was the only one you mentioned which wasn't a person's article, sorry for the confusion. If the article should be renamed then that's another discussion to be had on the relevant article, but that didn't seem to be what your initial comment was discussing and I haven't suggested to enforce the wrong thing anyhere. If an article title uses the person's full name, as Kim Seok-jin, Lee Dae-whi and Cho Mi-yeon and others do then referring to them by their surname is more apropriate. Referring to them by their mononym/stage name would be appropriate if the article title was the mononym/stage name (as Beyoncé and Gaga's are). Alex (talk) 23:41, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
- In news articles, these singers are referred to by their mononyms (both in eng and non-eng sources). At awards shows and on their albums it's usually their mononyms. I've recently been editing the Park Jimin (BTS) page and also at times wondered if Park or Jimin was more appropriate to refer to him by. All of this begs the question, why should this particular project's practices be different to the general standard established for BLPs across WP? The inconsistency is so great to the point that edits to correct in-article name usage "mistakes" (and by ext requests for changes to article titles) always cause contention/edit warring (I'm specifically recalling multiple instances of this happening on the Kim Seokjin article, Alexanderlee you might remember these as I think we both reverted attempts then) hence me being here. Didn't want someone reverting me on the MCD page even though my edits wouldn't be wrong. -- Carlobunnie (talk) 22:51, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
- I will say there is group of people preferring WP:COMMONNAME and others preferring WP:MONONYM. My preference is that the more encyclopedic approach is the mononym, where the full name is used when last name is known and used fairly often - esp when the stage name is clearly just their first name and not a pseudonym (Elvis Presley, Zayn Malik, etc). Nearly every Kpop artist uses their name mononymously - ala "Group-name's first-name" - and this happens to move into most Western sources because they are largely press releases and not encyclopedic content. I think the best disambiguation to cover the largest range of cases is the last name which was largely followed on groups like Girls' Generation and Super Junior. BTS's Jin seems to be a special case because there is no clear way to disambiguate other names given how common it is. Evaders99 (talk) 01:16, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- WP:MONONYM: "Similarly, don't use a first name (even if unambiguous) for an article title if the last name is known and fairly often used" - except that for many idols, though the last name is known, it is barely used. First name usage makes the most sense. WP:COMMONNAME: "Although official, scientific, birth, original, or trademarked names are often used for article titles, the term or name most typically used in reliable sources is generally preferred." - yes mononyms are most commonly used in both digital+print media (full names are only ever mentioned in biographies or introductory articles to familiarize the wider public with an artist), and thus should be used for article titles+in-article mentions. There are outliers known by a full name like Kang Daniel, but I am not familiar w many idols to name more. Elvis was equally known by his first+full name so I wouldn't take issue w any kpop artist's article being handled in a similar manner if the circumstances surrounding their name(s) are the same, which was the case for Jin in the end. I disagree w this part of you comment: "...this happens to move into most Western sources because they are largely press releases and not encyclopedic content". Many western sources (not just eng ones, though these are what I am most exposed to) write their own articles (they do interview the artists themselves after all) that are completely independent of press releases and use the artists mononyms to refer to them. I've seen many spanish/portuguese sources over the years that also do this.
- Long story short, my opinion is that if Miyeon is most widely known/referred to as 'Miyeon' rather than 'Cho Miyeon' then she should be referred to in articles as such (think Normani and Camila Cabello). And, while my orig issue was not w article titles but both topics are related, I will extend my comment to say that her article title should also be Miyeon (w a disambiguation if there are other articles on individuals w the same name). Taemin's article doesn't refer to him by Lee, which is out of keeping w the precedent set by the title, and contradicts the Daehwi article. In other articles, he is always referred to mononymously so I would think his article should be titled likewise, and imho a better disambiguation would have been Taemin (singer, Shinee), rather than Lee Taemin (born 1993). Most idols are known in connection w the group they belong to, not their age. Google stats show that group names are usually included with individual name searches rather than dobs. Otherwise every reference to him in-article should be changed to Lee. Selena is another example I would cite. Referred to by her mononym throughout the article, which is also mononymously named, even though her full name is well known. I'm sorry this was so long (I contemplated not replying to save boring you w my lengthy thoughts). -- Carlobunnie (talk) 04:04, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- @Carlobunnie:, Because of how Wikipedia title works, there's bound to be some limitations. Taking Taemin for instance, I believe his article should be moved from the current page (Lee Tae-min) to the currently redirect page (Taemin since it's a commonly known name and also refer throughout the article).
- However, in some case (I can't think of an example), there would be two or more singer with the same name hence their full name should be used as the title article instead (I believe you would already know that, just ignore it since it's for clarification). However, imo inside the article on the lead section, it should follow the same convention as Taemin. And thereafter in the entire body section, he/she should be refer to by their stage/mononym name instead. — Paper9oll (📣 • 📝) 04:16, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- Adding on, most SM entertainment artist article can be taken as reference. — Paper9oll (📣 • 📝) 04:19, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- There's an example for two singer mononyms being the same: T-ara's Soyeon (Park So-yeon) and (G)I-DLE's Soyeon (Jeon So-yeon), in this case, I guess having their full name in this case avoids confusion. Another example would be Blackpink's Jisoo (Kim Ji-soo) and the male actor (Kim Ji-soo) but that is already disambiguated. --CrystallineLeMonde (talk) 09:56, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- Adding on, most SM entertainment artist article can be taken as reference. — Paper9oll (📣 • 📝) 04:19, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- Long story short, my opinion is that if Miyeon is most widely known/referred to as 'Miyeon' rather than 'Cho Miyeon' then she should be referred to in articles as such (think Normani and Camila Cabello). And, while my orig issue was not w article titles but both topics are related, I will extend my comment to say that her article title should also be Miyeon (w a disambiguation if there are other articles on individuals w the same name). Taemin's article doesn't refer to him by Lee, which is out of keeping w the precedent set by the title, and contradicts the Daehwi article. In other articles, he is always referred to mononymously so I would think his article should be titled likewise, and imho a better disambiguation would have been Taemin (singer, Shinee), rather than Lee Taemin (born 1993). Most idols are known in connection w the group they belong to, not their age. Google stats show that group names are usually included with individual name searches rather than dobs. Otherwise every reference to him in-article should be changed to Lee. Selena is another example I would cite. Referred to by her mononym throughout the article, which is also mononymously named, even though her full name is well known. I'm sorry this was so long (I contemplated not replying to save boring you w my lengthy thoughts). -- Carlobunnie (talk) 04:04, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
Stub-article request
Hello Beautiful Korean,
I would like to request a stub article from you. What i want to req for is Kim Jwa-geun, chief minister of the Joseon. Because of the major hit of Korean drama Mr. Queen. Thanks VocalIndia (talk) 20:00, 14 January 2021
- Jayb.rd98 Can you help us for a stub? please ! VocalIndia (talk) 20:04, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
- That I can do! I can either start one, or if you have a draft or sandbox built I can help you out there! Let me know what exactly you need from me and Id be more than happy to assist! Jayb.rd98 (talk) 08:51, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
- @Jayb.rd98: i need a stub article. I can not write a stub article because I can not read Korean. His English information is very tiny! That's why i need a stub article from Korean native. Thanks VocalIndia (talk) 16:26, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
- No one active? How pretty wiki project? !!VocalIndia (talk) 19:37, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
- Or no-one interested. I am kind of interested but busy. Why don't you use machine translation like Google to translate it? WP:BEBOLD! --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:25, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
- Piotrus Google tran is evil for other languages translation. Thanks for your interested. Please help me when you are free. Thank you. VocalIndia (talk) 20:14, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
- VocalIndia, My Korean is very basic so the best I can offer is wiki-copyediting after someone translates it - because my attempt to translate would be by necessity done with MT. (Btw, I know Korean->English MT is still weak, but Polish-English these days is nearly perfect...). Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:41, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
- Piotrus Google tran is evil for other languages translation. Thanks for your interested. Please help me when you are free. Thank you. VocalIndia (talk) 20:14, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
- Or no-one interested. I am kind of interested but busy. Why don't you use machine translation like Google to translate it? WP:BEBOLD! --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:25, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
- No one active? How pretty wiki project? !!VocalIndia (talk) 19:37, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
- @Jayb.rd98: i need a stub article. I can not write a stub article because I can not read Korean. His English information is very tiny! That's why i need a stub article from Korean native. Thanks VocalIndia (talk) 16:26, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
- That I can do! I can either start one, or if you have a draft or sandbox built I can help you out there! Let me know what exactly you need from me and Id be more than happy to assist! Jayb.rd98 (talk) 08:51, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
- Deuxbleu, could you help ? VocalIndia (talk) 05:02, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
- Hello! I don’t know if I’ll be much of help, but what could I help you with? Deuxbleu (talk) 05:15, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
- Hello Deuxbleu and Jayb.rd98, I've created the article Kim Jwa-geun as much as i could with a machine translation tool as you suggested. So pls help the article by expanding and copyediting. Thanks VocalIndia (talk) 15:02, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
- Hello! I don’t know if I’ll be much of help, but what could I help you with? Deuxbleu (talk) 05:15, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
Which is the correct hanja for 아?
Is it 娥 or 妸? In my opionion, 娥 is the correct one. — 🍊 Paper9oll 🍊 (📣 • 📝) 04:16, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- @Paper9oll: Both are correct, there's 40 different hanja that can be used as "ah" for given names. Alex (talk) 04:44, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- @Alexanderlee: Ah I see, because I crosscheck on wiktionary and found no mentions for the 妸. Anyway thanks for the reply. — 🍊 Paper9oll 🍊 (📣 • 📝) 04:50, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- @Paper9oll: Both have the same meaning, beautiful, and they are no longer used in Korean. SkylightXO (talk) 22:26, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
Standard Set of Tools for WikiProject Korea
Editors editing articles about Korean subjects can often run into barriers like romanization of Korean words or transliteration of Hanguel to Hanja. For editors' convenience, I propose listing a standard set of tools in the WikiProject Korea template, like the romanization tool and NAVER's Hanja dictionary SkylightXO (talk) 22:49, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
Hi
The list 1st Central Committee of the Workers' Party of North Korea is currently a FL nominee. If you're interested in reviewing the FL please give comments. --Ruling party (talk) 11:52, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
Gyeogam Yurok
Hello! Some controversy is occurring at Gyeogam Yurok and Talk:Gyeogam Yurok... and I will not say more, to remain as neutral as possible! Pldx1 (talk) 11:43, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
Help with a footballer
Hi, I was wondering if a Korean speaker could help determine whether there are reliable sources to say that Park Jung-bae (footballer) died in 2017. There are no reliable English language sources for it, and Korean language Wikipedia lists him as died in 2017, but without a source for it. If he did indeed die in 2017, I would expect there would be Korean language sources for it, but I was unable to find any on a quick search (and my Korean fluency is none). Joseph2302 (talk) 12:23, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
- @Joseph2302: do you have the specific date, or month atleast, of when they say he died? -- Carlobunnie (talk) 05:03, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
- @Joseph2302: This is the only source, I found [1]. I wouldn't say it is news article but rather more like a summary of "on this day" happenings. — Paper9oll (📣 • 📝) 05:40, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
- @Carlobunnie and Paper9oll: I'd started a discussion at the Talk page of the Korean article: https://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/토론:박정배_(축구인)#Source_for_death As one user involved in the discussion pointed out, the page Paper9oll linked to probably copied from Wikipedia. We weren't able to find a reliable source for the death claim – which seems to have been added by an IP (]https://ko.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=박정배_%28축구인%29&type=revision&diff=19971382&oldid=19454852%7C) – so it was removed from the Korean article. Kind regards, Robby.is.on (talk) 08:40, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
- @Robby.is.on: Actually I didn't get the source from ko-wiki but rather from Naver by searching the footballer full name in Korean, combined with death word in Korean and death date taken from unreliable source (namu wiki) and that is the only non-forum result returned. Hope that give light to where I gotten it. — Paper9oll (📣 • 📝) 08:44, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
- @Paper9oll: I think there's a misunderstanding. I wasn't referring to what you did but about cj-ilbo.com, the page you linked to. They probably got their content from Wikipedia. Maybe from https://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/11월_11일? Robby.is.on (talk) 08:55, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
- @Robby.is.on: Oh okay. My apologies. — Paper9oll (📣 • 📝) 09:10, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
- No problem. :-) Happy editing, Robby.is.on (talk) 09:41, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
- @Robby.is.on: Oh okay. My apologies. — Paper9oll (📣 • 📝) 09:10, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
- @Paper9oll: I think there's a misunderstanding. I wasn't referring to what you did but about cj-ilbo.com, the page you linked to. They probably got their content from Wikipedia. Maybe from https://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/11월_11일? Robby.is.on (talk) 08:55, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
- @Robby.is.on: Actually I didn't get the source from ko-wiki but rather from Naver by searching the footballer full name in Korean, combined with death word in Korean and death date taken from unreliable source (namu wiki) and that is the only non-forum result returned. Hope that give light to where I gotten it. — Paper9oll (📣 • 📝) 08:44, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
- @Carlobunnie and Paper9oll: I'd started a discussion at the Talk page of the Korean article: https://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/토론:박정배_(축구인)#Source_for_death As one user involved in the discussion pointed out, the page Paper9oll linked to probably copied from Wikipedia. We weren't able to find a reliable source for the death claim – which seems to have been added by an IP (]https://ko.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=박정배_%28축구인%29&type=revision&diff=19971382&oldid=19454852%7C) – so it was removed from the Korean article. Kind regards, Robby.is.on (talk) 08:40, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
songwriter term?
If the musician composed own songs for themselves or are credited as part of their group's album/EP/single, is it notable enough to include songwriter
inside the infobox and lead section? Recently, I saw more and more biography within the WP:KO scope abusing the songwriter term by including it inside the infobox and also on the lead section. Some is even more ridiculous that they are included inside the infobox but not on lead section. Imo, the term should only be included if the musician is writing the songs for another artist rather than for themselves or their group.
What is your thought on it? — Paper9oll (📣 • 📝) 08:46, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
- Only include it if there's significant evidence of songwriter status in the article - that is, substantial works including others artists that have been giving critical review for such writing. Just trivial "they wrote lyrics to a song" doesn't show notability as a songwriter. Nearly all Kpop idols seem to write lyrics. It doesn't mean we have to stuff every little thing they do into the occupation line. Evaders99 (talk) 09:13, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
- @Evaders99: Is the songwriting credits table consider significant evidence? In case, you are wondering what I'm referring to, see Nayeon#Discography. Or should it be like Jung Eun-ji#Songwriting and composing credits to be consider significant? Both articles, that I have included as example doesn't have prose writing about it. — Paper9oll (📣 • 📝) 11:56, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
- I feel like the same notability requirements should apply within the sourced article. Is it notable generally relies on reliable, significant coverage independent of subject. A list of credits is just a trivial mention. I submit for example: Taylor_Swift#Songwriting. It need not be this detailed, but something in prose that can be sourced and cited with words from independent sources. My 2 cents. Evaders99 (talk) 21:22, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
- @Evaders99: Is the songwriting credits table consider significant evidence? In case, you are wondering what I'm referring to, see Nayeon#Discography. Or should it be like Jung Eun-ji#Songwriting and composing credits to be consider significant? Both articles, that I have included as example doesn't have prose writing about it. — Paper9oll (📣 • 📝) 11:56, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
Korean Ice Hockey History Help
Hello, is there anyone on this wikiproject who would be interested in looking at the Chosun Ilbo/NAVER newspaper archives (found here) for information on Ice hockey in South Korea? I've been wanting to write the eponymous article, complete with an in-depth history, and also expand the Korea Domestic Championship article. Ice hockey was first played in South Korea in 1928, and I am particularly interested in activities from the 1920s, 1930s, and 1940s, and secondarily the 1950s and beyond. I am looking for game results mostly. I do not have much knowledge of the Korean language, and with the prevalence of Hanja from the earlier years, researching in the newspapers is beyond my capabilities. I'm hopeful someone from this project might be willing to assist. --Hockeyben (talk - contribs) 02:45, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
4K UHD by uhdkorea.org
i saw user Letswatchin4k said uhdkorea.org is an official website of Korea Terrestrial Digital Broadcasting Association under the S. Korean Government which provides updates on progress of UHD broadcasting in Korea. Is this true? Michaelelijahtanuwijaya (talk) 11:11, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
Requested move at Talk:Iz*One#Requested move 10 March 2021
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Iz*One#Requested move 10 March 2021 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. EN-Jungwon 13:36, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
Consensus needed on Suga (rapper)
There is currently a discussion regarding the romanization of Suga's name and the validity of a source (not listed on WP:KO/RS) on the article's talk page. More input would be appreciated to reach consensus and avoid edit warring. - Ïvana (talk) 20:00, 12 March 2021 (UTC)