Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Poetry/Archive 5

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

←

Archive 3

WP 1.0 bot announcement

This message is being sent to each WikiProject that participates in the WP 1.0 assessment system. On Saturday, January 23, 2010, the WP 1.0 bot will be upgraded. Your project does not need to take any action, but the appearance of your project's summary table will change. The upgrade will make many new, optional features available to all WikiProjects. Additional information is available at the WP 1.0 project homepage. — Carl (CBM · talk) 03:47, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Shelley

Please have a look at this "short course" on P.B. Shelley, which has been prepared at Wikiversity by User:Ottava Rima, who is an admin there but a currently banned user here, as most of you will know. Ottava contacted me about seeing if we can transfer some of this material to Wikipedia. Per WP:CSD#G5, it wouldn't be appropriate to just copy it over; if we're going to have these pages on Wikipedia, then there needs to be some kind of community assent and community vetting of the material. I'm only an occasional reader of Shelley, so I'm in no position to judge the value of the material. The sources I've checked are not available online (except via previews at Google Books), which makes it hard for me to verify things, but maybe some of you have the printed sources. - Dank (push to talk) 00:12, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard/Archive 3#Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Fringe science amended. If one to three editors are willing to accept responsibility for the material imported, it would be worth it for them to file an amendment request with ArbCom asking for permission to import appropriate portions of material from Ottava Rima's Wikiversity courses. As individually offered advice, include a clear conveyance of what standards will be used in choosing material to import, including how material appropriate for Wikiversity but inappropriate for Wikipedia will be distinguished. It's worth a try and it would clear up any uncertainty about material authored by a banned editor or proxying for the editor in this circumstance. Vassyana (talk) 02:48, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Sure thing; next step is to see if we get some response here, since this seems like the likely wikiproject to work with (and the one Ottava suggested). - Dank (push to talk) 03:23, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

I would be willing to vouch and help as far as I can, having worked with Ottava on a number of articles. Ceoil ^sláinte 16:02, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm willing to make the occasional library trip, but I don't know bupkis about poetry except how much I dislike most of it--Tznkai (talk) 19:32, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I understand there's one more person coming who's knowledgeable and willing to help. I don't know the material or have the sources, so I'm out of my league here, but I'll be willing to copyedit if someone points me in the right direction. - Dank (push to talk) 21:50, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

I'd support this but due to being busy am unable to help. GARDEN 22:00, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm mostly useless these days, being busy etc. for at least a couple weeks if not longer... But perhaps I can putter around a bit on the edges of things, and try to chip in a modicum of help. • Ling.Nut 05:58, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

I have none of the sources listed in that course but I can vouch for Ottava's honesty and integrity. He seems very knowledgeable on literature of this type and I'd have no hesitation in supporting any copying of material. Parrot of Doom 11:01, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Ditto above comments. No reason not to perform this move; Ottava's content contributions have always been top-notch. --Andy Walsh (talk) 21:37, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Consider this with the caveat that poetry is not a topic I relate to, but I have never had any problems with the content Ottava Rima added to Wikipedia. --Moni3 (talk) 23:29, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

I have been in some offline discussions with Ottava Rima about this. I was offering supporting material as fits in with Wikipedia:WikiProject Missing encyclopedic articles, subproject Dictionary of National Biography, where I'm active already. This is in effect a fairly comprehensive fact-checking resource, complementary to modern critical literature. I feel this could all work, with a piecemeal approach. I'm not really up to speed with what is already posted on Shelley, but having seem plenty of Ottava Rima's work when we were both working on Milton topics, I don't think problems of integration would prove insurmountable. Charles Matthews (talk) 19:43, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Agreed with Andy. To the extent of my knowledge, Ottava's content was never the issue; it was his temperament and/or comments which brought conflict upon him. I don't know anything about poetry, but I'd be willing to vouch for it if necessary. —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 20:09, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Ottava asked me to take a peek, here. I don't have time at present to review the material, but if the quality is good and somebody's willing to vouch for it, why not? If there's drama involved, people blindly copying everything, or other shenanigans, that's one thing, but good content is good content, and assuming that's what we're getting here I don't see why we're turn it down. – Luna Santin (talk) 19:21, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Support YellowMonkey (bananabucket!) 04:35, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Request for comment on Biographies of living people

Hello Wikiproject! Currently there is a discussion which will decide whether wikipedia will delete 49,000 articles about a living person without references, here:

Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Biographies of living people

Since biographies of living people covers so many topics, nearly all wikiproject topics will be effected.

The two opposing positions which have the most support is:

supports the deletion of unreferenced articles about a living person, User:Jehochman
opposes the deletion of unreferenced articles about a living person, except in limited circumstances, User:Collect

Comments are welcome. Keep in mind that by default, editor's comments are hidden. Simply press edit next to the section to add your comment.

Please keep in mind that at this point, it seems that editors support deleting unreferenced article if they are not sourced, so your project may want to pursue the projects below.

Tools to help your project with unreferenced Biographies of living people

List of cleanup articles for your project

If you don't already have this and are interested in creating a list of articles which need cleanup for your wikiproject see: Cleanup listings A list of examples is here

Moving unreferenced blp articles to a special "incubation pages"

If you are interested in moving unreferenced blp articles to a special "incubation page", contact me, User talk:Ikip

Watchlisting all unreferenced articles

If you are interested in watchlisting all of the unreferenced articles once you install Cleanup_listings, contact me, User talk:Ikip

Ikip 02:14, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Request for comment on Biographies of living people

Hello Wikiproject! Currently there is a discussion which will decide whether wikipedia will delete 49,000 articles about a living person without references, here:

Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Biographies of living people

Since biographies of living people covers so many topics, nearly all wikiproject topics will be effected.

The two opposing positions which have the most support is:

supports the deletion of unreferenced articles about a living person, User:Jehochman
opposes the deletion of unreferenced articles about a living person, except in limited circumstances, User:Collect

Comments are welcome. Keep in mind that by default, editor's comments are hidden. Simply press edit next to the section to add your comment.

Please keep in mind that at this point, it seems that editors support deleting unreferenced BLP articles if they are not sourced, so your project may want to source these articles as soon as possible. See the next, message, which may help.

Tools to help your project with unreferenced Biographies of living people

List of cleanup articles for your project

If you don't already have this and are interested in creating a list of articles which need cleanup for your wikiproject see: Cleanup listings A list of examples is here

Moving unreferenced blp articles to a special "incubation pages"

If you are interested in moving unreferenced blp articles to a special "incubation page", contact me, User talk:Ikip

Watchlisting all unreferenced articles

If you are interested in watchlisting all of the unreferenced articles once you install Cleanup_listings, contact me, User talk:Ikip

Ikip 02:24, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

James Michie

Is there not an article on this author of "Dooley is a Traitor"? --Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 13:57, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

To arms! To arms!

Category:Poetasters is proposed for deletion!
Object or support -- voice your view 'ere completion!
Shall Wikipedia ignore the profound connections among all
The glorious rhymsters like William McGonagall,
McIntyre, Moore, McKittrick Ros,
Or J. Gordon Coogler (some might think it a loss),
But others [to comply with WP:CANVASS provisions],
Might deem this deletion a darn good decision.
Decide for yourself, and (here [1]) make your views known,
On the category for poets for badness renowned!
-- JohnWBarber (talk) 17:52, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for raising the issue - and in such style! -- BlackMarlin (talk) 18:25, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Possible attempt at paid editing

Please see this link for more information. I'm not sure what the current rules are regarding paid editing, but it's probably a good idea to keep an eye out for articles about Pakistani/Urdu poets that may be the result of paid editing and make sure they follow the rules of factuality and neutrality. - 131.211.210.182 (talk) 09:09, 3 February 2010 (UTC) (User:Mgm, too lazy to log in)

Romanticism and Revolution at AfD

Please offer opinions at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Romanticism and Revolution. -- Banjeboi 15:25, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

tables versus bulleted lists

I am growing concerned at seeing meretricious, overly complicated tables taking the place of bulleted lists in reference to an author's work. See examples at Marcel Proust and Elizabeth Barrett Browning. I have opined on Elizabeth's talk page and no one has responded there so I am bringing this issue here. I prefer seeing an author's work presented in the form of a bulleted list as in Elizabeth F. Ellet and as described in MOS:WORKS. Does anyone else have an opinion on this? - Josette (talk) 18:38, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

See Washington Irving's list of works or Bibliography of Edgar Allan Poe. I don't really have a problem with it but, then again, I'm not necessarily advocating it either. --Midnightdreary (talk) 04:24, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Milton's "Heavenly muse": Ghost or Satan? You decide!

Was Milton's muse the Holy Spirit? DId Milton have a Ghost writer? Was Milton inspired by Satan during the night? Please join the discussion here ;-) Paul August ☎ 14:20, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Acrostic

Acrostic now contains acrostic. Polishing invited. -- SEWilco (talk) 03:58, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Request help with this template

See Template:17th Century Scholasticism

1. Is this correct? Were the Metaphysical poets (at least the ones that were Anglican priests) part of Anglican scholastic theology? I am of the impression, given their use of argument and abstraction, that they came from a scholastic background, such as neo-Aristotelianism or Platonism. However, I am not very familar with this subject. Please correct me if the Metaphysical poets are not a good fit for this template. Thanks.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 02:23, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Dave Morice

Anyone want to have a crack at cleaning up Dave Morice? Rd232 ^talk 10:56, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Oxford Professor of Poetry

Here we go again. I have been working on the list, dealing with the eighteenth century where there were some not-too-notable gaps. Is anyone ready with the John Jones who was Professor from 1978 to 1983, to fill the remaining blank? Charles Matthews (talk) 10:26, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

So he is a critic, not a poet; born 1924 as far as I can tell, has written books on Wordsworth, Dostoyevsky, Shakespeare. Charles Matthews (talk) 10:53, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Thomas L. Vaultonburg

Please look in on Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Thomas_L._Vaultonburg.

The author - auto-biographical - thinks that the references show notability; "I am confident if people who have this expertise see it they will be able to tell you these publication credits are pretty substantial."

They wrote, if you want to claim it's not noteworthy do me the small honor of checking your facts first. Go see what percentage of submissions a publication like Exquisite Corpse or Caliban or Karamu published, or who else appears in those periodicals

-that was in a {{helpme}} request, hence my asking here, for others to consider the sourcing. Many thanks, Chzz ► 04:31, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Kubla Khan and Ode: Intimations of Immortality

Please reassess Kubla Khan and Ode: Intimations of Immortality, both of which have been hugely expanded. Thanks, Chzz ► 04:11, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Deletion discussion for Category:Poetasters

Category:Poetasters has been nominated for deletion (the seven days will run out at 21:13 on August 1). The discussion is here. This discussion may be of interest to anybody interested in poetry. Please take a look at it and consider helping us come to a decision on whether or not to keep the category. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 15:44, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

GA reassessment of The Botanic Garden

I have conducted a reassessment of this article as part of the GA Sweeps process. I have a few concerns about the prose, which you may find at Talk:The Botanic Garden/GA1. Thanks. Jezhotwells (talk) 20:35, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

I prefer the Temple of Nature myself, but if no one shows up to work on this, I can. Just drop me a notice on my talk page. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:29, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

It seems that Awadewit is on it. :) Ottava Rima (talk) 19:30, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Dionisio Ridruejo

I recently created an article for Dionisio Ridruejo and in the course of researching it I discovered that he was apparently a well-known poet. My own interest was only in his political career as I know next to nothing about poetry (especially in Spanish) but the article looks incomplete without any information on his work. As such this is a request for some knowledgable person or persons from here to look into adding the relevant information. Apologies in advance if this is not the right forum for requesting such help. Keresaspa (talk) 18:40, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

GA Reassessessment of Joyce Kilmer

I have conducted a reassessment of the above article as part of the GA Sweeps process. I have found a large number of concerns and as a result have de-listed the article. When these issues have been addressed, it may be re-nominated at WP:GAN. If you disagree with the delisting and the assessment at Talk:Joyce Kilmer/GA1, you may ask for a community reassessment at WP:GAR. Thanks. Jezhotwells (talk) 12:48, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Djelloul Marbrook

I ran across Djelloul Marbrook while checking for stray markup code, and there may be multiple issues at play here. Much of the article is promotional (review blurbs), the non-blurb part of the "Far From Algiers" section is copied from a bookseller site, and the article has been edited by someone with the same name as the article subject. I'm way out of my depth with modern literary figures, and I was hoping someone here might know what to do with it. My first instinct was to cut everything below the "Summary/Context" section, although there is potentially some useful biographical material in the "Far From Algiers" biographical information. J. Spencer (talk) 19:01, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Elvis's Twin Sister

There was an AfD on Elvis's Twin Sister which wound up being kept despite no sources to prove notability. Nobody is claiming the poet is not notable, but there is nothing provided in the AfD nor in the article to prove notability, but attempts at tagging the article for lack of notability keep getting reverted. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 23:56, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

You win some AfDs, you lose some AfDs. If the article was not notable the AfD would have been delete... C'mon just go and annoy someone else? Francium12 10:48, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I din't win or lose anything, because I didn't participate in the AfD, I personally have nothing to prove in this discussion, I just want sources. WP:V is a policy. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 17:24, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

The page isn't notable, the sources aren't reliable, and I doubt that Carol Ann Duffy really deserves an article even though she gets one by default for Poet Laureate. The actual poem page is filled with original research and should have been deleted. Just relist it later and maybe some people with sense will remove it. You could just call for a notability clarication and get some standards set up to not allow poems without sufficient appearances in multiple scholarly sources in more than just a mere mention. That would end this nonsense quite simply. Ottava Rima (talk) 20:35, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I can't help but agree that notability of this poem is tenuous at best. Just because it exists doesn't mean it deserves an article, regardless of who wrote it. --Midnightdreary (talk) 21:30, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

New category Category:Inuit poets

Just a heads-up, ran across a few recognised poets while reading up on Inuit history. I put a note at the top clarifying that qualifying persons must be recognised as original poets, as opposed to the first Inuit who happened to recite a commonly-known verse to a Western anthropologist. Just thought folks might find it an interesting aspect of poetry. The book I cite as source in the articles probably has several other Inuit poets who meet WP:NOTABILITY. MatthewVanitas (talk) 03:38, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Love's Philosophy

An editor has repeatedly changed the penultimate line in this poem from "what is all this kissing worth" to "what is all this sweet work worth". When challenged, the editor cited "The Poems of Percy Byssshe", at page 555--edited by Edmund Blundsen (Collins) and "A Treasury of great Poems", at page 725--edited by Louis Untermeyer (Galahad Books, New York). I don't have immediate access to these volumes, so I suppose it is possible that they contain this alternate line. The advice of other editors would be appreciated. Dlabtot (talk) 14:35, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Published by Leigh Hunt, "The Indicator", December 22, 1819. Reprinted by Mrs. Shelley, "Posthumous Poems", 1824. Included in the Harvard manuscript book, where it is headed "An Anacreontic", and dated 'January, 1820.' Written by Shelley in a copy of Hunt's "Literary Pocket-Book", 1819, and presented to Sophia Stacey, December 29, 1820. is all this sweet work Stacey manuscript; were these examples Harvard manuscript; are all these kissings 1819, 1824. [2] Dlabtot (talk) 15:02, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

==comment== the intervention of that editor is regrettable. This is an Encyclopedia not a poetry book. It follows that we are concerned only with facts not aesthetic judgments. From this it follows that the poem should be given exactly as it was first published by Hunt in the Indicator 1819. Later manuscript emendations published posthumously, such as that in the Harvard manuscript, can be given in notes. The full story is given in the link cited on the page but we should do exactly the opposite to what they do when their main example is the Harvard one. Alf Heben

Billy Collins

There seems to be a dispute / edit warring over the inclusion of a former professor as one of the influences of this poet. Your input at Talk:Billy Collins would be appreciated. Regards, decltype (talk) 17:03, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

A Question

Hello poetry project people, this seemed like as good a place as any to ask this, what ever happened to that Wikipedia poetry project to make the World's Longest Poem? --( fi ) 02:36, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

T.S. Eliot and the BBC poll

Today in my home country, the United Kingdom, is National Poetry Day, and T.S. Eliot has been declared the Nation's Favourite Poet. I have left a message on the talk page for Eliot about this. The article's introduction could do with a clean-up, and perhaps this information could be inserted in the introduction. Many thanks, ACEOREVIVED (talk) 21:19, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

In case you are curious, the Top 5 poets in this poll were:

T.S. Eliot John Donne Benjamin Zephaniah Wilfred Owen Philip Larkin

I think I've been spamming, but I'm not sure.

I'm not sure where to ask this question about external links on poetry pages (till recently I just edited articles and added references) but this seems like a good place to start.

Lately, I've been attempting to improve the articles on various non-Anglophone poets and poems by adding links to translations written by me and published on my blog: http://poemsintranslation.blogspot.com

After a quick look at WP:EL, I realized that what I was doing could constitute spam. Wikipedia policy clearly prohibits blogs and personal websites and, as such, links to my blog are in violation of the letter of the law on WP.

However, my blog does not make me any money (not that I didn't try,) and does not even include any personal information that could suggest my actual identity. So it's not self-promotion in the slightest. Its primary purpose is informational as I explain in this entry. Moreover, WP does encourage users to write their own translations of relevant source content where none is available in the public domain (c.f. WP:OR#Translations), which suggests to me that such links may not be in violation of WP's spirit.

Advice? Suggestions? Szfski (talk) 01:07, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

This matter is being discussed at WP:ELN#Am I spamming WP?. It may be useful to add replies at that location to keep discussions in one place. Johnuniq (talk) 10:21, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Wake up call:)

Hello Friends; I have been busy and have not been paying much attention to the project in recent months, and i can see that our unassessed list has grown quite long in that time. If you have a free moment, knocking out two or three at a time will go a long way towards catching us up. Thanks. Mrathel (talk) 17:07, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Comic verse

I created Comic verse as a redirect to a section in English poetry, a section I think that needs expanding. I created a few other redirects e.g. Comic poetry that then redirect through this. I added a courtesy note on the English poetry article that Comic verse links there. All other redirects go via Comic verse.

But I am not entirely happy with this. There may be a better subject or category explaining comic verse. For example, Sir Arthur Sullivan's libretti in the Savoy Operas were mainly in comic verse. Limericks, double dactyls, McWhirters, clerihews, etc, are all, to my mind comic verse, as are Lear's poetry and Lewis Carroll's (Charles Lutwidge Dodgson).

This needs a bigger expansion and perhaps there is an article that deals with it, but I can't find it. Hence the redirect. If there is a better article, I should be glad to know of it. Griff Rhys Jones edited "The nation's favourite comic poems" and I have plenty of other sources, I will quite happily make an article of it, but I imagine one has already been made but I can't find it.

Best wishes Si Trew (talk) 10:44, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

I think an article on Comic Verse would be entirely legitimate, as it is a clearly notable subsection of poetry in general. I have done a few quick searches and have found enough articles to put an article together pretty quickly. However, its not really something I have studied, so I am not sure I am comfortable writing it. It would also make a good category as well, but again I would have to do some research before diving into such an undertaking:) Mrathel (talk) 13:46, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

the Poetry portal template

So I was looking at various articles and there is no standard way/guideline to including a link to the Poetry Portal. Some use the {{Poetry portal}}. Others {{Portal | Poetry}} with some including the little graphic and others not. Is there any consensus to use one over the other, and what the guidelines are? andyzweb (talk) 02:26, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure what role, if any, this group plays with the poetry portal, which might explain it. --Midnightdreary (talk) 02:51, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

I am not sure of the portal relationship either. It might be an issue to take up there, as I am sure the question is something they would find more pressing than we. Projects and portals tend to act like stepchildren in a dysfunctional family. :) Mrathel (talk) 13:57, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

That confusion alone might explain why there hasn't been an effort to link to the portal in a consistent manner. I doubt it's even maintained (anyone know better?). --Midnightdreary (talk) 15:37, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Redirect for Lord Byron under discussion

The redirect Lord Byron currently redirect to George Gordon Byron, 6th Baron Byron, the English Romantic poet. This redirect is under discussion at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion#Lord Byron. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 15:18, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Assessments

I have gone on a spree and have assessed all the articles on the list except for 5, which were either created or expanded by me. We should have a pretty good categorization of our articles at this point, so if you are looking for something to do, check out the stubs and start adding info:). I have noticed since the Coleridge collaboration the project has fallen into a hibernation, and I can see that getting large group to work together is probably less productive than I had hoped:) If anyone has an idea of what we can do individually to help the project, however, I would love to hear it. Cheers Mrathel (talk) 18:29, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Copyright on Havisham

The Havisham article contains a full copy of the poem. According to the article, it was only written in 1998, so I was wondering what the copyright status on it was, and how to find out. Jhbuk (talk) 19:03, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

It's definitely in copyright still. It should be removed ASAP! --Midnightdreary (talk) 19:30, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Anna Mendelssohn / Grace Lake

I'm afraid I know very little about poetry, so I would be grateful if project members could give a look over the article on Anna Mendelssohn (the poet sometimes published under the name Grace Lake) which I've just written. If there is more to be written about her poetry it would be good because this part of her life is probably more interesting than the events of 1971-2 which are better documented and so dominate the article. Sam Blacketer (talk) 23:45, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Capitalisation regarding poems

Where the first line of a poem - in this role, uncapitalised - also serves as its title, such as I wandered lonely as a cloud and many others, should it be capitalised? My own feeling was probably not, not least since they normally form a clause structure sufficiently complex that it would not be capitalised even if it had been the official title. - Jarry1250 ^{[Humorous? Discuss.]} 20:32, 26 December 2009 (UTC)