Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/5/History and geography/Archive 1

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Archive 5

West Coast of the United States listed twice

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I just noticed that this article is listed twice and I don't know where it should be listed. Interstellarity (talk) 14:32, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

• Please clarify where it is listed and what are the possible places you think it should be listed.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:43, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

  Sorry, just typed this in a rush. It is listed under East Coast of the United States as well as under Western United States. I haven't made up my mind on which entry we should remove, but I just wanted to point this out. Interstellarity (talk) 22:47, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

  • I see that it could be logically placed in either of the places it is listed at in Wikipedia:Vital_articles/Level/5/Geography/Countries#United_States. I am not sure which way it should go, but doubt it matters much.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:48, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

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Add Bangor, Gwynedd

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Grnrchst suggested this town as a better choice to combat the issue of Wales being underrepresented compared to England in the UK. This town is the oldest city in all of Wales, dating back to the 6th century AD, and the article clearly shows the town as influential.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:59, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
2. Per nom and previous comments. North Wales needs a city on there. --Grnrchst (talk) 19:07, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose, seems Anglo-centric. Anglesey is decent coverage for North Wales – if another is warranted, perhaps add North Wales? J947 † ^edits 23:08, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
2. Wales being underrepresented? I think it is overrepresented (entire UK is, like USA) and we need to cut, cut, cut. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:31, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

   I meant comparatively to England, and I would be fine with adding this via swap with an English city. QuicoleJR (talk) 11:13, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Discuss

1. I don't oppose this addition exactly, but I'd argue focusing on Scotland's underrepresentation is more pressing as it has the same number of articles (3) as Welsh cities but is nearly twice as large in population (3.1 million vs 5.4 million) --Totalibe (talk) 18:35, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

   I am planning on it. I was shocked when I saw how few articles Scotland had in VA5. If you have any ideas, feel free to a section for them. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:42, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

   Stirling seems like the most obvious omission. It's the site of one of the most important battles in the wars of independence, the bridge between the highlands and the lowlands, the former capital. It's all there. I have other suggestions but that's the one I'd say demands an entry. --Grnrchst (talk) 19:07, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

   I just read that article, and it is definitely a vital article. I have proposed it for addition below. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:12, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

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Add Norilsk

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We list 57 Russian cities, here's a 58th. Vital for being incredibly far north – further than all sizeable places but a handful of Norwegian cities – and in the middle of nowhere anyway. With about 200,000 inhabitants, it's also remarkable for being accessible by air only, and has very restricted outside access.

Support

1. Support as nom. J947 ‡ ^edits 05:40, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
2. Support (In)famous as one of the most polluted cities on Earth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Totalibe (talk • contribs) 12:24, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
3. Support per nom, although some others might need to be removed. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:24, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
4. Per nom. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 00:53, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Per my current view that we have too many geographical entries. "Vital for being incredibly far north" - for me this seems trivial. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:57, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

   It's referring to the fact that it is incredibly rare for an city near the Arctic Circle to be as populous as Norilsk. But I agree that it isn't enough to stablish its vitality; maybe with the decapitation of the glaciers with will become more economically important. The Blue Rider 20:04, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

2. Per above. --Kammerer55 (talk) 09:49, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

   I don't think we need three cities from one federal subject, especially when Krasnoyarsk is not at level 4. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 18:30, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

   Achinsk, the other one, looks out of place – it's smaller than Norilsk and basically right next door to Krasnoyarsk (which almost makes VA4). Looks a very obvious removal candidate. J947 ‡ ^edits 00:08, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

   I would probably support a swap with Achinsk. Now, for Krasnoyarsk - on Level 4, we list Vladivostok and all million+ cities as of the 2010 census. I’m not sure if we should add the four others that passed it by the 2021 census. (Krasnoyarsk, Krasnodar, Voronezh, Perm) OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 00:32, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

   Too late to make this a swap proposal, but I've proposed to remove Achinsk below. J947 ‡ ^edits 00:35, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Discuss

Would list this one before about half of the Russian cities currently listed. J947 ‡ ^edits 09:52, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

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Remove Achinsk

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Per above.

Support

1. As nom. J947 ‡ ^edits 00:35, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Per nom. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 00:39, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Vitality unproven. starship.paint (RUN) 14:14, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
4. Totalibe (talk) 21:32, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Plymouth, Massachusetts and Salem, Massachusetts

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These cities have no importance in the present day. They are only important in a historical context and history articles adequately cover the concepts. Interstellarity (talk) 16:10, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 16:10, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
2. Support removing Salem since it's already covered by Salem witch trials  5. Weak support on Plymouth since it seems to be largely covered by Thanksgiving  5 and Pilgrims (Plymouth Colony)  5. (Also, Thanksgiving (United States) has 30x more views than Plymouth but is absent from the list.) --Kammerer55 (talk) 21:50, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
3. Support per Kammerer55, with a note that I'd also be fine with a swap for Thanksgiving (United States)]. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:23, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
4. Support per above. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 18:40, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

1. These cities are very historically important. They should not be removed. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:02, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
2. Oppose Salem just was kept earlier this month and it is unfair to rehash it immediately without further consideration or a fault in that process. Plymouth is historically important.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:49, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
3. Oppose Historical significance is enough to keep them on the list. pbp 20:44, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

I will note that listing these sorts of small settlements (and Tuskegee, St. Augustine) is a behaviour confined to the U.S. J947 ‡ ^edits 22:31, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

In history, there's an entire section of "historical cities"... pbp 00:29, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Those are actually major cities of the past though: I'm not sure that's the case so much for these two, which don't represent a major civilisation's peak but its beginnings. J947 ‡ ^edits 00:43, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

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Remove Portmore, Jamaica

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This section is a bit over the quota, and this city does not seem to cut it. It gets its importance from being a commuter town for Kingston and Spanish Town. With a population of 2.8 million, Jamaica does not need four cities at VA, and this city seems like the least important.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:18, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
2. Was just about to say that Central America and the Caribbean could do with a bit of a cull pbp 15:56, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
3. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 16:32, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
4. Support per nominator. The Blue Rider 20:06, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
5. Commuter towns are generally unimportant, Jamaica is overrepresented. J947 ‡ ^edits 23:27, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
6. Totalibe (talk) 18:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
7. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 12:09, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove San Fernando, Trinidad and Tobago and Chaguanas

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Neither of these TOWNS are particularly large; all of Trinidad and Tobago is 1.4 million pbp 16:09, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Additional infomation: The "urban area" of Chaguanas is just over 100,000 population and San Fernando's "urban" area is about 82,000 Chaguanas and San Fernando are about 33 km (20 miles) from each other. San Fernando is only 55 km (34 miles) from Port of Spain. Chaguanas is only 25 km (15 miles) from Port of Spain. The three TOWNS are on an island that is smaller than Los Angeles County, not much larger than the City of Los Angeles or Long Island, and with significantly fewer people than all three of those other areas. pbp

Support

1. pbp 16:09, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
2. Support Chaguanas per nom, weak oppose San Fernando as the country's largest city. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:22, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

   Chaguanas is its largest city. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 18:38, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

   It is the largest metropolitan area, San Fernando is the largest individual city. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:47, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

   From what I can see Chaguanas is the larger (though significantly less historically important) city no matter the measure, but the whole fact that it is arguable rather puts to bed the idea that largest cities are automatically vital – if it isn't even clear which city is larger, how important is it really as a designation? Population is certainly the primary measure to gauge a city's importance, and is neglected at VA5, but being a country's largest city is often more of a statistical quirk than anything else. It does not confer any extra vitality than if Chaguanas or San Fernando were 20 people shy of attaining that status. J947 ‡ ^edits 22:14, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

3. Support both, articles fail to justify their significance. starship.paint (RUN) 16:31, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
4. Support both (weak support San Fernando), mostly given that we already list Trinidad as an island. J947 ‡ ^edits 22:14, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
5. Agree with what is said above. I don't think Trinidad needs more than one entry. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:45, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
6. Support both. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 12:10, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Weak oppose San Fernando, which is more well-established than Chaguanas and is located further away from port of Spain, in the southern part of the island. Totalibe (talk) 18:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Discussion

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Remove Montpelier, Vermont

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Montpelier doesn’t have much going for it other than being the capital of Vermont. It’s a pretty unimportant city in the New England region compared to Burlington. Interstellarity (talk) 22:22, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. Nom.
2. Absolutely. J947 ‡ ^edits 22:24, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
3. I do not support the tradition of having every state's capital and largest city. This is the smallest American city we list and one of only two (the other being Tuskegee) to have a four-digit population. Also, Vermont is the second least populated U.S. state. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 00:01, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
4. Yet another city that has only regional significance. V6 stuff. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:18, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
5. If VA6 ever gets made I would support it there, but just being a U.S. state capital is not enough to be vital at this level. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:09, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
6. Being the capital of one of the smallest states while having such a small population in its own right is not a great combo. Totalibe (talk) 18:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

1. The opening paragraph of the lead says it punches above its weight in terms of population because it balloons over 150% during the business day, which makes it different from most municipalities of its size. By virtue of it being a state capital it has statutory importance. E.g. it has 112 interwikis compared to Tuskegee, Alabama which only has 56. Its 90-day pageview is more than 2.5 times Tuskegee's (which User:OhnoitsvileplumeXD mentioned was the only other city below 10k population). Since it has twice as many interwikis and more than 2.5 times the pageviews, I find it improbable that Tuskegee is truly significantly more vital.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 02:29, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

   Leaving aside the fact that I don't support Tuskegee's inclusion either, it's important to note that state capitals have a reputation that outmatches their importance. You Americans often memorise the 50 state capitals in elementary school (weird), correct? That certainly boosts their well-knownness and by extension their views without actually making them more vital. On the interwiki front, many wikis have inevitably taken the approach of making articles for all state capitals because it's easy to do as a grouping. This necessarily increases the interwiki count, while, again, not being a helpful pointer towards vitality. I just don't like the fact that a third of the American city spots are sewn up by state capitals, especially when their political importance is covered similarly at their state article (Vermont). The concept that state capitals are intrinsically vital strikes me as odd, despite being from a capital. Montpelier's sphere of influence is about 25,000, while Dayton's is about 800,000. J947 ‡ ^edits 02:46, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

   Well if U.S. state capitals get viewed on the encyclopedia because they are state capitals, does that make their views count less? We are trying to determine which pages are important to the entire encyclopedia. Things that are part of a group that get viewed a lot have that type of importance.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:04, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

   Vitality is importance, not views. Views help gauge importance, but don't determine it. J947 ‡ ^edits 04:18, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

   J, you are correct that Americans do memorize and sometimes research state capitals in elementary and middle school pbp 16:40, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Neutral

Neutral, but we should also consider nominating Pierre, South Dakota for like reasons. pbp 03:42, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

• User:Purplebackpack89, after all of these U.S. city defenses, you are no longer their protector? Do you have a new perspective now?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:54, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

  LOL I didn't vote to remove, I voted neutral. And I also want consistency...if we're looking at the smallest U.S. state capital, maybe look at the second-smallest as well. If we're looking at removing American non-presidents, look also at British non-PMs, etc etc etc pbp 16:39, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

  If this passes I'm certainly going to keep going up and nominate Pierre, etc., for the record. J947 ‡ ^edits 22:37, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Discussion

I don’t think we need state capitals that are not their state’s largest city, are under 100k in population, and are in states of under 2m in population. I’d support some other removals and swaps elsewhere, but we should start here. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 23:17, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

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Remove Hamilton, New Zealand and Dunedin

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These two NZ cities are adequately covered by their regions – Waikato and Otago – which are listed.

Hamilton is unimportant for its size, while the Waikato is basically the centre of NZ farming, a major industry.

Dunedin v Otago is a closer debate, but I think the region wins for its great 19th century importance and now the rise in Central Otago of Queenstown and co. I don't think there's room for both.

Support

1. Support both as nom. J947 ‡ ^edits 21:55, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
2. per nom to avoid overlap given the recent decision to keep Waikato and Otago. starship.paint (RUN) 14:13, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Support per my view we give too much quota to geographical entries. Oceania is at quota? No ideas what to add? Great. Remove those unimportant towns, reduce quota, move on. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:47, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
4. Per J947, and I do not find the quota argument to be a good one. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:56, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
5. Support Hamilton only, as it is a city relatively close to Auckland, which is much larger and more important. Still oppose removing Dunedin. Totalibe (talk) 01:43, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose both. Oceania is at quota, the inclusion of the other cities and Dunedin neatly divides the country into the north and south regions of both of the main islands, and Hamilton has the largest metro area leftover. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 23:20, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

# Oppose I don't really understand the reasoning that because a region is listed, that makes its main city redundant. In any case these removals will leave Oceania below quota (and perhaps by more than two per my comment below). Totalibe (talk) 21:32, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

1. Subsection quotas don't matter when VA5 is so young.

   I don't think it's right that NZ has 10 city + region articles at this level, while Liberia – which has a greater population than NZ – has only 1. J947 ‡ ^edits 03:49, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

   Changing to oppose Dunedin only, as a major regional, cultural and educational hub. Totalibe (talk) 01:43, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Discuss

Just to be clear, it's 100% correct that if we were to list 5 NZ cities these are the five; and if we were to list 4 NZ cities it would be the big three + Dunedin. The question is whether it's justified for NZ to include both 5 region articles and 5 city articles, and it's my strong advice that if that is unjustified these are the two removals to pursue. J947 ‡ ^edits 00:02, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

If the proposal gets passed, should I propose two more in Papua New Guinea (most likely Mt Hagen and Madang) to get Oceania back at quota? Its population is around double that of NZ's. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 17:19, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

I haven't examined PNG – those additions may or may not be justified – but I don't see the point in ensuring completely correct quotas at this point in time. J947 ‡ ^edits 02:06, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

PNG doesn't really have many large cities (in fact its one of the least urbanized countries in the world iirc) Totalibe (talk) 19:57, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

As a note: there are two further entries in Oceania that may need to be moved for different reasons. Yaren District, the capital of Nauru, isn't actually recognized as a city or settlement but rather as a district so it may need to be moved to "non-city settlements", and Flying Fish Cove is the capital of Christmas Island, an Australian external territory that is located much closer to Indonesia and is regarded as being in Southeast Asia. Both of those subsections are under quota fortunately. Totalibe (talk) 21:32, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

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Remove Bairiki

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Kiribati only warrants one city at this level, and Bairiki is only a town within the capital and largest city of South Tarawa. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 20:08, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 20:08, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
2. pbp 20:42, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
3. This appears to be a district or islet within the capital that happens to house several government institutions rather than a separate settlement. Totalibe (talk) 01:43, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
4. Crucial for Kiribati, but I doubt Kiribati is vital at all. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:03, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

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Removal of ten least populous state capitals in the United States

With the removal of Montpelier set to pass, I think it would make sense to nominate the 10 least populous state capitals since their importance is probably not significant. I'm sure as with South Dakota, I highly doubt ANY city in the state is vital at this level. As with Alaska, Anchorage is all that's needed. Interstellarity (talk) 18:27, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

For about the third or fourth time, I have to note that CITY population is not the best metric; a better metric is COUNTY or METRO AREA population. pbp 19:50, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Pierre, South Dakota

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See rationale above. Interstellarity (talk) 18:28, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 19:03, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
2. South Dakota only needs Sioux Falls, which has a city proper population of around 200k and a metro area of around 300k, and seems to be a large city for a state with its population. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 18:56, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Not important enough. QuicoleJR (talk) 20:16, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
4. J947 ‡ ^edits 21:00, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
5. pbp 19:48, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
6. Totalibe (talk) 21:39, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

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Augusta, Maine

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See rationale above. Interstellarity (talk) 18:28, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 19:03, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Only needs Portland, which has a somewhat significant metro population of over 550k. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 18:56, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
3. J947 ‡ ^edits 21:00, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
4. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 05:43, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

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Frankfort, Kentucky

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See rationale above. Interstellarity (talk) 18:28, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 19:03, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Only Louisville and Lexington are vital at this level. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 18:56, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
3. J947 ‡ ^edits 21:00, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
4. Totalibe (talk) 21:39, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
5. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 05:43, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

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Juneau, Alaska

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See rationale above. Interstellarity (talk) 18:28, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 19:03, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Anchorage's metro area of over half of Alaska's population is enough to cover the state. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 18:56, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Never heard of it, local importance only. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:35, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

   How are you using "local" here? And "I've never heard of it, so it must not be vital" is a very weak argument. pbp 00:21, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Certainly not your usual 30,000-population state capital. J947 ‡ ^edits 21:00, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Totalibe (talk) 21:39, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
3. It's not that small relative to the population of Alaska, which is geographically the largest state in the US. It's the largest city in its region. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 05:44, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

• Keep in mind that Alaska, while having a population of under three-quarters of a million, has 3 cities while Georgia, one of 11 million, has 2. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 11:38, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

  Since when does Georgia has two cities? Atlanta, Savannah , Augusta, etc. The Blue Rider 12:39, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

  Georgia just has Atlanta at V4 and Savannah at V5, so I’d support the additions of at least Augusta and Columbus. The Great Lake states also strike me as very underrepresented at V5, and as a Michigander, I’d at least add Flint, Green Bay, Peoria, and South Bend in the region. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 13:29, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

  Ah, I misunderstood never mind. The Blue Rider 14:18, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

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Helena, Montana

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See rationale above. Interstellarity (talk) 18:28, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 19:03, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Only Billings needs to be listed at this level, with its city proper of 120k and its metro area approaching 200k. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 18:56, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
3. J947 ‡ ^edits 21:00, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
4. Totalibe (talk) 21:39, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
5. I do not see how it is vital. Being the state capital is really the only thing going for it. QuicoleJR (talk) 01:55, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

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Dover, Delaware

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See rationale above. Interstellarity (talk) 18:28, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 19:03, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Only Wilmington is vital at this level, and even it is just a suburb of Philadelphia. Just shows Delaware's lack of vitality in the present day. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 18:56, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
3. J947 ‡ ^edits 21:00, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
4. Wilmington is more important. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 05:44, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

A question: if Delaware only gets one, perhaps it should be Dover and not Wilmington? pbp 01:13, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Wilmington has always been the largest city in Delaware, and has a metropolitan division of well over 700k. Even if it’s technically a suburb of Philly, that is a strong V4 and this one, as stated earlier, has its own metro division. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 01:31, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

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Annapolis, Maryland

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See rationale above. Interstellarity (talk) 18:28, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 19:03, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Annapolis is not vital at this level, but Maryland does deserve a second city, so I'd consider adding Frederick. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 18:56, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

1. With it having been the capital of the United States at one point, it having the United States Naval Academy and St. John's College, and the Annapolis Conference having happened there, I would say that this city is vital at this level. Definitely more vital than Montpelier. QuicoleJR (talk) 20:04, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Former U.S. capital.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 02:58, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Historically important enough to warrant inclusion. Former national capital, current state capitol of a state of 5 million plus people. And @OhnoitsvileplumeXD:, Annapolis is DEFINITELY more notable than Frederick and should be the second Maryland city on here. pbp 19:47, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

   Furthermore, let me again point out that Annapolis only is considered one of the least populous if you look at city only and ignore county or metropolitan area. There are 588,261 people in Anne Arundel County, which is almost as many as the STATES of Vermont, Delaware, or South Dakota. pbp 19:55, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

4. Per above Totalibe (talk) 21:39, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

1. So what? We don’t list Lancaster, York, or Princeton, nor do we list plenty of historical European capitals. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 12:24, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

   While that is a major reason for keeping it on the list, it is not the only reason, and there are several other important things contributing to its vitality. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:53, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

   None of those are current state capitols and two of them (excepting York) I'd be fine with as being on this level of vitality pbp 19:48, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

   I would actually support adding York (assuming you are talking about this one). Totalibe (talk) 21:39, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Hi everyone, I have decided to close this discussion on Annapolis. At this point in the discussion, unless a massive crowd of support votes come to the discussion, which seems unlikely, I think it would be better to close it and let the other discussions run their course. Interstellarity (talk) 17:34, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

@Interstellarity: You are supposed to summarize the consensus of a discussion in a close rationale when you close a discussion. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:17, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

@QuicoleJR: I should have made this in my statement above, but my intention was to withdraw the nomination. There seems to be consensus against the removal with just me and one editor supporting the nomination and I didn't feel like that continuing the discussion would benefit anyone. Of course, if anyone disagrees with me and thinks that Annapolis should be removed, I am more than happy to reopen the discussion. I hope this clarifies everything and look forward to working with you on making the list the best it can be. The list is not and will be perfect, but I do enjoy working on this project. I understand we may have our disagreements and I am happy with the way the list is developing so far. Thanks, Interstellarity (talk) 19:33, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for explaining. I do not believe you can withdraw a discussion after it gets another support besides your own. If you would like to withdraw your support, that is fine, but I do not think it should be closed. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:44, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Procedurally, you are suppose to close this by saying that consensus is not removed. Also, you can not withdraw a nomination once it has received support from a discussant other than the nominator.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:59, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

• As I have mentioned at Level 5 top page, I don't think people should close their own nominations.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:01, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

  I reopened it. QuicoleJR (talk) 20:04, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

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Jefferson City, Missouri

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See rationale above. Interstellarity (talk) 18:28, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 19:03, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Jefferson City is a far cry from being vital at this level, but Missouri most certainly deserves a third city, so I'd consider adding Springfield. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 18:56, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
3. J947 ‡ ^edits 21:00, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
4. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 05:45, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

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Concord, New Hampshire

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See rationale above. Interstellarity (talk) 18:28, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 19:03, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Manchester's metro area of well over 400k is enough to cover New Hampshire in the present day. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 18:56, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
3. J947 ‡ ^edits 21:00, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
4. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 05:45, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

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Remove Saint-Pierre, Saint Pierre and Miquelon

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The entire territory (itself a VA5) is just 93 square miles and a population of about 6,000, fewer than 1,000 of which live on Miquelon. St. Pierre the village and St. Pierre the territory are almost indistinguishable and neither are populous nor extensive. If this wasn't the "capital" of a tiny overseas territory there's 0 chance it would be on the list pbp 20:53, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom pbp 00:00, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
2. We don’t list most territorial capitals in the Caribbean. As a general rule of thumb we should have: if a country/dependency/first-level subdivision of a major country doesn’t have a population of at least 50k, then it doesn’t need a city. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 21:03, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Support; the territory only warrants one article. J947 ‡ ^edits 03:19, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
4. Support per nominator. The Blue Rider 12:13, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
5. Redundant at this level to the territory. CMD (talk) 02:04, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
6. Per my view that 4 digits of pop are not enough for vital without historical significance or like, and this is not seen here. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:00, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

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Remove Alofi

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Per rationale for St. Pierre above pbp 19:07, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 19:07, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Population of 600, although it is in free association with NZ and could be more vital than St. Pierre. Neither are particularly vital, though. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 20:00, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
3. This is the least vital national capital (Niue + the Cooks are basically countries and listed at VA4 for that reason) and there are a few others we could also remove. J947 ‡ ^edits 00:13, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
4. Good example that being a capital doesn't make something important. This is not vital in any dimension that matters. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:57, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Flying Fish Cove

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Per rationale for St. Pierre above pbp 19:07, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 19:07, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Only added for coverage of Christmas Island, from what I hear. Most of the island’s population lives in the settlement, so I don’t see the point in having both. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 19:55, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

   For the record, your last sentence is a point in favour and not a point against inclusion. When that population is 1,700 however... J947 ‡ ^edits 00:08, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

3. Support – I know this was only just added but it has just seemed so wrong that we list 15 Australian cities and this is one of them ahead of Geelong, Bendigo, Townsville, the Central Coast, and Launceston. We list Christmas Island  5. J947 ‡ ^edits 00:06, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
4. Population: ~1,500. No, those kind of places are not vital at V5. IMHO nothing under 5 digits of population should be here unless it has major historic significance. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:56, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Avarua, potentially add Aitutaki

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The removal is easy: Avarua is just one part of the coastal urban area of Rarotonga  5, by far the more vital topic (speaking as someone who has been there).

I'm not sure about the add of Aitutaki (island with population 1,700 – not insignificant) as a third representative for the Cook Islands  4. But, given it's a much better option than Avarua, I thought I might as well raise it as an option.

Support removal

1. Support removal as nom. Neutral on addition as it stands. J947 ‡ ^edits 10:52, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
2. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 11:33, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Totalibe (talk) 21:39, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
4. Support removal, oppose addition (not seeing how it is vital). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:05, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose removal

Support addition

1. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 11:33, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose addition

Discussion

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Organizing the history list

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I want to open up a fresh discussion on organizing the history list. Per previous discussions on this topic, I tried to implement merging some sections together but it turned out to be a mess. Instead of having sections for the 19th, 20th, and 21st centuries, I thought it would be better to organize the list with Ancient, Post-classical, Early modern, Late modern (to 1945), and Contemporary (from 1945). I think it would be better since 21st century is only more than 20 years of history. I would like to gather some thoughts on how we can organize the list better and this is the idea I had. I also want to put out there that I am not comfortable restructuring the list alone since I messed up before and would like some help doing it if possible. I look forward to your comments. Interstellarity (talk) 02:37, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

I assume you are talking about Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/History. Ancient, Post-classical, Early modern alraedy exists. I support your idea tentatively due to the fact that the current system jumps from descriptive to by-century periodization for now good reason. That said, it will be quite a lot of work. But if you are willing to do so, I have no objections, but please be careful not to drop any entries this time :P _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:37, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I am talking about the history list you have mentioned and I am aware that Ancient, Post-classical, Early modern already exist. I'm glad you support the idea of using Late modern and Contemporary. I understand that it will be a lot of work, but I will be careful doing so. I don't know if you would willing to do this, but I would appreciate your help with this monumental task. Thanks, Interstellarity (talk) 13:17, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

@Interstellarity, where should articles be placed if they stretch over multiple time categories, e.g. Abolitionism? Thanks, Of the universe (talk) 02:50, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

@Of the universe: I have had multiple articles that while doing the last stretched multiple time periods. What I have done is to put it in the time period that is most closely associated to the period. You can also put it in the time period where it spanned the longest. In short: use your best judgement. Interstellarity (talk) 12:52, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

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Addressing time discrimination in history

As I said above, I think we have way too many articles on geographical entities, past and present. And to compund that, we somehow do not list, even at V5, articles on world history periodization by millenium, century, decade or year. Year is too detailed, fine, although one could think twice about some important dates (1918, etc.). Millenium might be too broad and those articles are very poor (2nd millennium). But centuries and decades have often decent articles. We may quibble with decades, but I think at least a ten or so most recent ones are nearly houshold names - at least I often hear folks referncing 1980s or 1990s. And if anyone wants to argue that concepts like the the 20th century are not vital... I'd like to hear it. Of course, even with centuries, if we go back far enough we will hit historical trivia, although where exactly do we draw the line is a good question. I'll propose addition of some recent centuries/decades, which are not just vital for periodization but IMHO are vital for culture and are often referenced in everyday conversation. Feel free to add more, although this may get a tad unwieldy if someone draws the line at let's say 1st millenium BC :P --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:02, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

• @Piotrus: - great catch. Where will they be classified in? starship.paint (RUN) 11:30, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

  @Starship.paint Maybe in a new subsection? I am going to post my review of the entire history page under #Organizing the history list above in a little while. @Interstellarity who may have some ideas on this, as they started on this a while back. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:44, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

  Thanks for the ping. You can see the discussion that Piotrus mentioned that you are more than welcome to comment on. One way I have in mind for organizing the history section is this: Prehistory (2.5 million years ago - 5,000 years ago), Ancient (6000 BCE - 476 CE), Post-classical (476 CE - 1500 CE), Early modern (1500 - 1750), Late modern (1750 - 1945), and Contemporary (1945 – present). I don’t think we should be using centuries to divide the top sections. Another idea I have would be in each section, split the top time periods like Late modern and Contemporary into centuries or decades and then split those up into locations. I think when we do this, we can make sure that each section has about the same number of articles and avoid recency bias. 21st century spans only 23 years of history while Contemporary and Late modern span a much longer timeframe. I think this would be a much better system of organization and will help aid with navigating. Interstellarity (talk) 21:37, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

I don't think I'll actively oppose if there's a lot of support for it, but just to play devil's advocate, aren't these articles for specific date-ranges pretty "listy"? While they encompass a wide range of topics, they feel like more of a remix of other articles.

Maybe I'd feel differently someday if they evolved into something more substantial. They don't seem to convey as much though as an article on a specific event or a more organic historical period (cf. Yuan dynasty or Post–World War II economic expansion). Zar2gar1 (talk) 12:36, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Great suggestion! For centuries, we can probably start from as far as 15th century, because that’s when the world became global and the modern history started. For decades, definitely all decades in contemporary history should be present (starting with 1940s), but WW1 as suggested is also a good cutoff. Kammerer55 (talk) 16:52, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

• Per User:Kammerer55 definitely need to get all Gregorian calendar centuries. I think decades should go back to the mid 1800s for starters.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 00:11, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Add 21st century

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The present... --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:02, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:02, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
2. Surely at least level 4, if not higher. starship.paint (RUN) 11:30, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
3. Obviously vital, but debatable if history. pbp 16:03, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
4. Support I think the last dozen centuries may be vital.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:44, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
5. Support. --Kammerer55 (talk) 17:12, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
6. Totalibe (talk) 18:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add 20th century

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The recent past and arguably most important century in human history. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:02, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:02, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
2. Surely at least level 4, if not higher. starship.paint (RUN) 11:30, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
3. pbp 16:03, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
4. Support I think the last dozen centuries may be vital.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:44, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
5. Support. --Kammerer55 (talk) 17:12, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
6. Totalibe (talk) 18:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add 19th century

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Still often referenced, I'd draw the line here for obvious additions in century when it comes to cultural references and conversation. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:02, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:02, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
2. Per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 11:30, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
3. pbp 16:03, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
4. Support I think the last dozen centuries may be vital.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:44, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
5. Support, and would support all starting with 15th century. --Kammerer55 (talk) 17:12, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
6. J947 ‡ ^edits 01:26, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
7. Totalibe (talk) 18:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add 1910s

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I am not going to write a detailed rationale for every decade, but I believe each decade of the 20th century onward, starting with the one that saw WWI, is vital. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:02, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:02, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 11:32, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
3. pbp 16:03, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
4. Support. --Kammerer55 (talk) 17:12, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add 1920s

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See above. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:02, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:02, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
2. pbp 16:03, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
3. Weak support. Does not seem like many obviously global events happened then, but support for completeness, if we start with 1910s. --Kammerer55 (talk) 17:12, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
4. J947 ‡ ^edits 01:26, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add 1930s

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See above. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:02, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:02, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
2. pbp 16:03, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
3. --Kammerer55 (talk) 17:12, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
4. J947 ‡ ^edits 01:26, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add 1940s

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See above. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:02, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:02, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 11:32, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
3. pbp 16:03, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
4. Support. --Kammerer55 (talk) 17:12, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

   J947 ‡ ^edits 01:26, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

   On reflection, won't support this yet. I don't want too many of these decade/century articles – though I do agree that in general these are good additions – and the 1940s is not really such a contiguous, tangible time period as the other decades I'm supporting. It's split in half: in fact, Contemporary history starts right down the middle of it. J947 ‡ ^edits 01:32, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add 1950s

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See above. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:02, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:02, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
2. pbp 16:03, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
3. --Kammerer55 (talk) 17:12, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
4. J947 ‡ ^edits 01:26, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add 1960s

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See above. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:02, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:02, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
2. pbp 16:03, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
3. --Kammerer55 (talk) 17:12, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
4. J947 ‡ ^edits 01:26, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add 1970s

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See above. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:02, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:02, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
2. pbp 16:03, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
3. --Kammerer55 (talk) 17:12, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
4. J947 ‡ ^edits 01:26, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add 1980s

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See above. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:02, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:02, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
2. pbp 16:03, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
3. --Kammerer55 (talk) 17:12, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
4. J947 ‡ ^edits 01:26, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add 1990s

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See above. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:02, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:02, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 11:32, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
3. pbp 16:03, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
4. --Kammerer55 (talk) 17:12, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
5. J947 ‡ ^edits 01:26, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add 2000s

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See above. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:02, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:02, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 11:32, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
3. pbp 16:03, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
4. --Kammerer55 (talk) 17:12, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
5. J947 ‡ ^edits 01:26, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add 2010s

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See above. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:02, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:02, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 11:32, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
3. pbp 16:03, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
4. --Kammerer55 (talk) 17:12, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
5. J947 ‡ ^edits 01:26, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add 2020s

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See above. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:02, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:02, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 11:32, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
3. Though, as with 21st century, IDK if "history" is the correct classification. pbp 16:03, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
4. Support. I think the history classification is appropriate. --Kammerer55 (talk) 17:12, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Only 4 years through. J947 ‡ ^edits 01:26, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

   4 years pretty eventful I would say though. The Blue Rider 22:38, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

   Eh. Overall I think decades tend to pretty much have the same influence as the previous one – I don't think we're just talking about the big events (Covid, Jan 6, Ukraine, Israel) in these decade articles. J947 ‡ ^edits 22:41, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

   4 years that will become 10 years, and if it doesn't become 10 years this addition doesn't matter anyway. starship.paint (RUN) 05:52, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

   By that same coin we might as well add 2030s, then why not 2040s, etc. The vitality of this article isn't, IMO, in that it will occur, but in the importance of it as a historical topic. Yes, we'll almost certainly add it eventually, but it doesn't warrant addition now as it does not yet cover the important events of 2024* and beyond. To put it another way, it becomes more and more important to have a quality article on it as the decade develops. I'm also concerned that decade and century articles will become bloat on this list. J947 ‡ ^edits 06:20, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

2. Agreed with J947's argument, we should wait until it ends. The Blue Rider 00:23, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Remove House of Teururai

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Minor dynastic house of three islands part of the Society Islands, Huahine, Maia'o and Raiatea. The house didn't last a lot of time, from 1852 to 1895 and as so it merely produced 6 rulers. WikiProject Polynesia rates this article as low-importance, plus more relevant for the Society Islands is the Pōmare dynasty but even so Kingdom of Tahiti  5 is enough to cover this topic; I would much rather list House of Bourbon or House of Aisin-Gioro. The Blue Rider 09:41, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator. The Blue Rider 09:58, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
2. The article doesn't show its importance. starship.paint (RUN) 09:44, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Totalibe (talk) 18:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
4. Haha we list this but not House of Bourbon? There's a long way to go... J947 ‡ ^edits 08:20, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
5. I'd strongly prefer to see House of Burbon added, so maybe swap? But I guess we should just vote on addition, I guess. Ping me if anyone starts a relevant discussion. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:28, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove History of Nunavut

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The territory of Nunavut is less than 30 years old and has fewer than 100,000 people. Probably several other Canadian provinces can lose their history but this one for sure pbp 00:16, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 00:16, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Add LGBT history

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This one is a strange case, since we have LGBT history in the United States but not the general page on worldwide LGBT history. Possibly the US page could go, but either way this definitely needs to be here.

Support

1. Nom Totalibe (talk) 02:04, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Support switch at least temporarily, although perhaps there is something deeper to dig into here. CMD (talk) 03:08, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Per CMD. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 23:07, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
4. Support swap per countering systemic bias and other arguments here. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:35, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
5. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:06, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
6. Not as important as History of feminism  5, History of anarchism  5, History of social democracy  5, etc, but still vital. The Blue Rider 00:46, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

• LGBT  5 is currently lv5 as part of Sexuality and gender and LGBT movements  5 is lv5 as part of Society. It does seem odd these are all on the same level. I would say the global history is much more important than the US history though. CMD (talk) 03:08, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

  As it stands, various basic sexual orientations plus transgender are Lv4, although I think its likely that LGBT, as a general term/concept refering to gender and sexual minorities, also needs to be promoted regardless. Totalibe (talk) 00:23, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

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Remove West Jersey and East Jersey

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I do not see how these are important. New Jersey got split in half and then merged back a couple decades later. The articles do not show vitality in any way, and we don't need three articles on the colonial history of New Jersey.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 20:07, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nominator. WikiProject New Jersey classifies it as mid-importance. The Blue Rider 22:25, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:24, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Aurangzebra (talk) 07:23, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
5. More US-centrism that needs to go. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:44, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
6. Totalibe (talk) 23:30, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

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Add Springfield, Massachusetts

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It’s the largest city in Western Mass and is without a doubt vital at this level. Interstellarity (talk) 17:06, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Please, don't add stuff to the list without consensus; make a proposal. The Blue Rider 17:52, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

What Blue Rider said. I object to anything being added that way anymore. Also, the consensus right now seems to be to have fewer, not more, American cities. pbp 18:47, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Just edited my comment and turned it into a proposal. Interstellarity (talk) 22:35, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. Nom
2. Weak support; 5 out of the 6 Massachusetts cities listed are in Greater Boston and this is the 4th most populous New England city. Though New England does strike me as very overrepresented already at VA5. J947 ‡ ^edits 23:10, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

1. The largest city in Western Massachusetts. What? Too specific; this city is a far cry from being vital. The Blue Rider 12:14, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
2. Not seeing compelling reasons for its importance. starship.paint (RUN) 06:00, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
3. What TBR said. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:43, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

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Remove small Midwest U.S. cities

I don't consider either of these small cities particularly notable. I question whether they deserve a spot since cities (2,025/2,000), Americas (384/360) and North America (229/210 articles) remain over quota. I think there should be consensus that these are among the bottom 19 North America cities or bottom 24 Americas cities.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:21, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

1. Dayton, Ohio (137,644, 75 interwikis)
2. Duluth, Minnesota (86,697, 74 interwikis)

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Support Remove Dayton

1. As nom.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:21, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
2. US is over quota. I don't believe I've ever heard of Duluth, and as for Dayton, well, see over quota. No, I don't think 74th-largest city in the USA is vital. One city per state should be good enough, and if some states merit 2, it also means some others merit zero (I haven't even checked but if all states are listed as vital, here's more stuff do remove, because, no they should not be). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:30, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

   You don't like geography or politics, do you. J947 ‡ ^edits 03:38, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

   I think the real problem is he doesn't like the US. Nor does he seem to understand it pbp 04:31, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

   @Piotrus: you're aware that two U.S. States have populations of over 25 million, right? And those two states alone have 8 or 9 different cities with populations over three-quarters of a million, right? pbp 04:34, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

3. per nom. Being in the top 50 or top 75 is not persuasive when we are over quota. starship.paint (RUN) 03:42, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

1. It's worth noting the population number quoted for Dayton is the city proper, not the metro area, which is over 800,000 (74th-largest in USA). I think Dayton squeaks by for retention; it's one of the largest "small" cities up for removal. Dayton was in the Top 50 most populous cities for a century, and it's also historically been a center of the aerospace industry as it's the hometown of the Wright Bros. pbp 01:34, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
2. Judging by population count alone is misleading here. Totalibe (talk) 08:32, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
3. Oppose per pbp – metro population demonstrates its importance, and the city itself was more important ~50 years ago. I'd add Akron, Ohio too: basically equally as important. Where the U.S. city bloat comes from is not major centres like Dayton, but from the desire – not replicated in any other country – to include 1 or 2 cities from every state no matter how small. J947 ‡ ^edits 07:26, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
4. QuicoleJR (talk) 00:47, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
5. City proper population is often misleading. More vital than many state capitals. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 01:08, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Discussion

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Support Remove Duluth

1. As nom.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:21, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
2. Per nom. We are over quota and this is relatively minor. starship.paint (RUN) 03:42, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
3. Totalibe (talk) 08:32, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
4. Per my comment above. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:20, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
5. Interstellarity (talk) 17:42, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

1. This is an interesting one so I'm a bit miffed everyone got in here so early to pile on. Here's a few reasons why:

   • It's my impression – perhaps overly Ticket to Ride-driven – that Duluth is very important historically as a well-placed hub, at the far-western edge of the Great Lakes.
   • Duluth is also a notable tourist destination, with several notable architectural feats and natural attractions in Duluth or nearby.
   • In combination with Superior, Wisconsin across the river – also a fairly important city of its own right but with its sphere of influence solidly swallowed up by Duluth – it forms a metro area with population 291,638, and the 19th-busiest port in the U.S.
   • Current-day populations don't accurately reflect importance in this instance, because these are declining cities – Superior peaked in 1910; Duluth in 1960.
   • We probably want to include a Lake Superior port at this level, for which the options are Duluth and two Canadian cities: Thunder Bay and Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario. It would be nice to have someone familiar with the area tell which of these three is the most important.

   Ultimately I come out on weak oppose: it's an important city for numerous reasons in a relatively remote spot, which probably beats out the two Canadian competitors. J947 ‡ ^edits 04:23, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

2. Per J947. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 01:41, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Discussion

• @Piotrus: - I think you mean to split your vote above at Dayton to a second one at Duluth. starship.paint (RUN) 04:32, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
  • Indeed, tnx for the ping. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:20, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
• I think we should have a city in Minnesota outside of the Twin Cities area, and Duluth or Rochester would make the most sense imo. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 11:40, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

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Remove small Mid-Atlantic U.S. cities

I don't consider either of these small cities particularly notable. I question whether they deserve a spot since cities (2,025/2,000), Americas (384/360) and North America (229/210 articles) remain over quota. I think there should be consensus that these are among the bottom 19 North America cities or bottom 24 Americas cities.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:53, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

1. Allentown, Pennsylvania (125,845 2020 census population, 72 interwikis)
2. Erie, Pennsylvania (94,831, 67 interwikis)
3. Atlantic City, New Jersey (38,497 population, 71 interwikis)

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Support Remove Allentown

1. As nom.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:53, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
2. Support this per 'over quota, don't look that special'. I lived in PA for 10 yeears and well, Pittsburgh and Philly are enough from that state IMHO. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:10, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
3. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 04:50, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
4. Totalibe (talk) 08:32, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Weak oppose straight removal, but would support swap with Lehigh Valley. Pennsylvania seems quite a tough one – there's lots of valleys where lots of people live but no properly populous city. Looks like we're going to be left with a situation where a 13-million-strong state with great historical importance is left with only 3 cities because of it. Interesting. J947 ‡ ^edits 07:55, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
2. Per J947. It is also Pennsylvania’s third largest city. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 12:54, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Discussion

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Support Remove Erie

1. As nom.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:53, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
2. Not that significant, really. SnowFire (talk) 22:49, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
3. Support this per 'over quota, don't look that special'. I lived in PA for 10 yeears and well, Pittsburgh and Philly are enough from that state IMHO. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:10, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
4. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 04:50, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
5. Totalibe (talk) 08:32, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
6. Somewhat weakly. J947 ‡ ^edits 07:57, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
7. Interstellarity (talk) 01:36, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
8. Somewhat weakly, better candidate than many state capitals, but Reading would be a better choice for Pennsylvania’s fifth city. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 12:54, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Support Remove Atlantic City

1. Support this per 'over quota, don't look that special'. I lived in PA for 10 yeears and well, Pittsburgh and Philly are enough from that state IMHO. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:10, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

   Atlantic City is not in PA, it's in New Jersey. QuicoleJR (talk) 11:18, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

2. If it were still Monaco-of-the-East-Coast I would have said keep, but the city seems to have declined since the 1960s. starship.paint (RUN) 04:59, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
3. Tourism isn’t enough, since Honolulu was removed from Level 4 recently, and neither is a board game. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 12:54, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Due to significance as a tourist haven and Monopoly pbp 01:27, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
2. This is another one where its vitality goes beyond the population count (per pbp and SnowFire). Totalibe (talk) 08:32, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
3. Weak oppose on balance: with the Trump Taj Mahal, it's no doubt vital at this level (but seriously, per SnowFire). J947 ‡ ^edits 08:03, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
4. Per SnowFire, plus this is the city where Monopoly takes place. QuicoleJR (talk) 12:29, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Discussion

1. Neutral as nom.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:53, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

• Atlantic City punches above its weight for its low population. As a resort town, a huge amount of both its workers and its tourists don't actually live within AC's city boundaries. Its official city boundaries are also very, very tight (more than half of the physical territory of AC is a big unlivable swamp) so the low pop is also a quirk of how the political boundaries are drawn - according to metropolitan statistical area, the full AC-Hammonton area has 371,272 people, and more strictly just including Margate / Longport / Brigantine of ~43,000 people (the other cities on the island). Anyway, its real claim to fame is being a Monaco-of-the-East-Coast for awhile back when gambling was only legalized in a few places, and a resort in 1840-1940 or so back before the advent of cheap air travel for rich East Coasters. Site of the 1964 Democratic National Convention as well. Anyway, if there's a major cutback in quota on minor cities, should be cut anyway, but I think it's quirks make it more relevant than Allentown and Erie. SnowFire (talk) 22:49, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
  • User:SnowFire, that is a very long discourse for a person who has decided not to weigh in with an explicit vote. You are fre to vote neutral, abstain or remain silent, but your prose sounds like you are trying to influence our thinking, but by not voting you are not influencing our decision. It just seems odd to me because I rarely say much of anything when I am neutral.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:58, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
    • I spent some of my life living near Atlantic City so I wouldn't be a neutral party to vote, but I can offer some commentary and background. SnowFire (talk) 06:02, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

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Reduce quota of Oceanian cities by 5 or more

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There are only 44 million people on the entire continent. Some of the "cities" are teeny tiny and are facing removal at the moment. We complain that there are too many Usonian cities on the list, but if U.S. was covered that way, there would be over 300 Usonian cities. pbp 20:42, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom pbp 20:42, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Per nom. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 20:57, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Per nom, would likely support more, much more. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:07, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Could go down even more. starship.paint (RUN) 02:39, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Would anybody be willing to go even lower? @OhnoitsvileplumeXD: 35? 30? If all active removals pass, we'll be under 40. There are several other possible removal targets and I'd be hard pressed to think of an add target. pbp 00:32, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

For a country of around 10m or so, PNG seems underrepresented. While it is not very urbanized, Mount Hagen seems like a potential addition for being one of three cities in the country. I also could see Geelong being added as it is one of few cities to have its own WikiProject. As for the region they will be redistributed to, I’d say Central Asia for being at 150% of its quota and Uzbekistan alone being somewhat comparable in population to the continent. I’m not an expert at Oceania, however, I’m just doing this in my bed in rural southeastern Michigan. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 01:05, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Yeah I would be. I can spot 14 on the current list of 45 I'm pretty confident we can remove from the most cursory check, so 30 or even 25 (or something in between) I'd support. By and large I'd rather list islands for Oceania. J947 ‡ ^edits 10:42, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

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Swap: Remove Montgomery, Alabama, Add Huntsville, Alabama

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Huntsville is by far an important city. I was going to propose a swap from Tuskegee, but that has already been proposed. Interstellarity (talk) 00:21, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 00:21, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Support addition There were only two new largest cities per the 2020 U.S. Census according to List of largest cities of U.S. states and territories by historical population. Good nomination.---TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:13, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Support addition as the new largest city in Alabama. Oppose removal per pbp. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:00, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose removal because Montgomery is a significant state capital.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:13, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Oppose removal Montgomery is a large enough and historically-significant enough (fmr. Confederate capital, center of civil rights battles) to warrant inclusion pbp 20:01, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Neutral

1. Support addition as Huntsville is the largest city in Alabama, and the only state’s largest city that we don’t list. Oppose removal since Montgomery is also large, with a city proper population of 200k and a metro population of 385k. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 00:40, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Discussion

FWIW, when the VA cities were listed, Birmingham was still the largest city in Alabama pbp 20:01, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

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Remove Auki

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The Solomon Islands do not need to have two cities on the list, and Auki is a town with only 7K people with no apparent historical, geographical, or political importance besides being the capital of a small province.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:34, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Support per nom. The Solomons are big by Pacific Island country standards but still only have one city with a population above 20,000. In compensation, we list 6 island articles for the Solomons (including Malaita  5, which Auki lies on). J947 ‡ ^edits 23:47, 10 December 2023 (UTC)
3. Per J947. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 00:07, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
4. per above starship.paint (RUN) 02:53, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
5. Totalibe (talk) 19:57, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
6. Per my general view that we have too many cities and that such cities as those are just pointless quota fillers. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 00:12, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
7. pbp 01:56, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

If this gets passed, what should we add? Should we reduce the quota to 40? OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 22:58, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

I don't understand why there's being a sudden obsession about specific quotas. A section being one under quota rightfully is better than an article being forced on to the list for the sake of a round quota when it doesn't belong. J947 ‡ ^edits 23:47, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

There's no rush to add anything in the same section, @OhnoitsvileplumeXD: the empty spot can go into any topic... but we are also over quota in Level 5 overall, so, just take it as we're progressing from 50,200 to 50,000... starship.paint (RUN) 02:56, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Probably. Support quota reduction. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 00:12, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

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Remove Martha's Vineyard and Nantucket

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These islands, while popular vacation destinations, are overshadowed in importance to Cape Cod which is listed, hence the name Cape Cod and the Islands. Interstellarity (talk) 16:23, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 16:23, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Just minor islands/localities. What makes them vital? Mind you, I'd liketo cut geography quota significantly, and instead add more stuff with global reach, like popculture concepts or historical events that affected more people then those that live in such tiny localities. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:44, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
3. per Piotrus. starship.paint (RUN) 06:35, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nominator. The Blue Rider 11:46, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose MV. I barely associate these islands with the cape. They have their own identity.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:43, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Per Tony. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 08:47, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

The nomination is misleading. It makes it sound like Cape Cod is an article dedicated to Cape Cod and the Islands. There is no Cape Cod and the Islands article. The Islands are not in Cape Cod. The islands are no more a part of Cape Cod than Southeastern Wisconsin or Northwest Indiana is part of Chicago.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:17, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

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Removal of histories of small U.S. states

Right now, the history of every single U.S. state is listed, even though several states are quite small in population and most are less than 200 years old. I am nominating the the history of every U.S. state with a population under two million for removal from this list, except for Alaska, Hawaii (who have certain peculiarities due to being discontinuous) and any of the 13 colonies (who are significantly older than the other 37 states) pbp 21:02, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

This is a great start, though I would actually support removal of most of them. In total for all countries and continents, we have a similar number of articles about regions at level 4 and corresponding "History of" articles at level 5. Namely, on level 4 we have around 150-200 articles: 110 article from the main section plus more articles from other sections, like islands and unrecognized states which are also considered as regions. On level 5, we have around 150-200 articles about the regional histories: 422 from the main section minus ~200 countries and different thematic topics. However, for the US we have only 8 states present on level 4, but 50 histories of states on level 5 and 13+ colonies (with several duplicates for Province/Colony). To balance it better, I would frankly keep only histories of Texas, Hawaii, Alaska, California and Florida, since those were changing between different countries, and would add History of New England instead of Dominion of New England (which existed for only 3 years). Maybe, we can also keep histories of states which were original colonies, but then we should probably keep only one of the "History of ..." and corresponding Colony/Province articles for each state. Kammerer55 (talk) 21:53, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

What Kammerer55 said. Support removal all listed here, feel free to copy my sig to support removal of any US state section here, or treat my vote as +1 for all entries here. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:15, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Remove History of Idaho

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Support

1. pbp 21:04, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
2. --Kammerer55 (talk) 21:18, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
3. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:15, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:39, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
5. Totalibe (talk) 18:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
6. Interstellarity (talk) 01:39, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
7. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:55, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
8. J947 ‡ ^edits 23:14, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove History of Maine

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Support

1. pbp 21:04, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
2. --Kammerer55 (talk) 21:18, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
3. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:15, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:39, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
5. Totalibe (talk) 18:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
6. Interstellarity (talk) 01:39, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
7. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:55, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
8. J947 ‡ ^edits 23:14, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove History of Montana

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Support

1. pbp 21:04, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
2. --Kammerer55 (talk) 21:18, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
3. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:15, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:39, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
5. Totalibe (talk) 18:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
6. Interstellarity (talk) 01:39, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
7. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:55, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
8. J947 ‡ ^edits 23:14, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove History of Nebraska

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Support

1. pbp 21:04, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
2. --Kammerer55 (talk) 21:18, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
3. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:15, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:39, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
5. Totalibe (talk) 18:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
6. Interstellarity (talk) 01:39, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
7. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:55, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
8. J947 ‡ ^edits 23:14, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove History of North Dakota

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Support

1. pbp 21:04, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
2. --Kammerer55 (talk) 21:18, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
3. J947 ‡ ^edits 22:36, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
4. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:15, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
5. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:39, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
6. Totalibe (talk) 18:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
7. Interstellarity (talk) 01:39, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
8. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:55, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove History of South Dakota

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Support

1. pbp 21:04, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
2. --Kammerer55 (talk) 21:18, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
3. J947 ‡ ^edits 22:36, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
4. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:15, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
5. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:39, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
6. Totalibe (talk) 18:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
7. Interstellarity (talk) 01:39, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
8. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:55, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove History of Vermont

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Support

1. pbp 21:04, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
2. --Kammerer55 (talk) 21:18, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
3. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:15, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:39, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
5. Interstellarity (talk) 01:39, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
6. Beginning to think we do list too many History of X articles. Not convinced either are vital but I'd rather list Green Mountain Boys or Vermont Republic on their own. J947 ‡ ^edits 23:14, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Weak oppose since it was one of the few states that was independent. The Blue Rider 11:47, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
2. Oppose because it was its own country for fourteen years. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:34, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
3. There is something there (in the 2 opposes above).TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:55, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

Not necessarily opposed but I feel like the Green Mountain Boys thing complicates this one a bit. J947 ‡ ^edits 22:36, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

User:J947, are you considering voting? I ask because your comment seems to lack a finality and the vote is close so getting all voices counted is important.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:58, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

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Remove History of West Virginia

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Support

1. pbp 21:04, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
2. --Kammerer55 (talk) 21:18, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
3. J947 ‡ ^edits 22:36, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
4. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:15, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
5. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:39, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
6. Totalibe (talk) 18:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
7. Interstellarity (talk) 01:39, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
8. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:55, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove History of Wyoming

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Support

1. pbp 21:04, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
2. --Kammerer55 (talk) 21:18, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
3. J947 ‡ ^edits 22:36, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
4. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:15, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
5. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:39, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
6. The least populated U.S. state. Totalibe (talk) 18:56, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
7. Interstellarity (talk) 01:39, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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